Give us some sense in of the magnitude Of how difficult it was to launch what Was it from we have some money start the Clock to actually getting something Launch in space and how impressive is That relative to what other people take Historically we talked to a lot of Experts and they said you should Estimate about 3 years and about $50 Million to get your first satellite to Orbit we did it in 12 months and we Ended up spending well under $10 million To get that first satellite to orbit That was hard this weekend startups is Brought to you by Squarespace turn your Idea into a new website go to Squarespace.com twist for a free trial When you're ready to launch use offer Code twist to save 10% off your first Purchase of a website or domain LinkedIn Ads to redeem a $100 LinkedIn ad credit And launch your first campaign go to Linkedin.com thisweek in startups and Andte domains te domains are the goto Namespace to build anything in Tech and Home to the world's most Innovative Startups keep an eye out for our jam Session with jcel contest coming up soon Be sure to secure your dote domain today At get. Tejon welcome back to this weekend Startups no I am not Jason calanis I am Mark suster and I'm incredibly excited To have Ian cinamon
The co-founder and CEO of Apex space With me today welcome thanks Mark it's Great to be here I have spoken with you Before about the company many times I'm Really excited to get into Apex space And why you started it I wanted to just Start with a little bit of a primer for People so I thought maybe before talking About Apex we could talk about the Industry maybe you could tell me why you Think Space is having such a moment Right now because I know it's getting a Lot of attention from investors and Founders space has absolutely become I Think a a core Focus for many many Industries right I think people often Think of space as kind of its own Industry but the reality is it's Something that's enabling so much more And to your point there's a question of Like why has this suddenly become this Focal point of attention and it really Comes down to the full process of taking Something on Earth putting it in space And having it do its business whatever That may be and if you think about it You start out with some sort of Satellite or payload here on Earth and You need to launch that from Earth and Get that up into space right whether That's right above the atmosphere in Leo Or even higher into moo or Geo or to the Moon or Beyond I mean we can get into Some of those specifics later Ian but
Like why now like why do I keep reading About VC's funding businesses now it all Comes down to the fact that getting from Earth up into space the cost and the Frequency of that happening has Fundamentally changed in the last couple Years W so if it's really thanks to Companies like SpaceX rocket lab and Others uh luckily all based here in LA But um that have massively lower the Cost so if you wanted to launch a Satellite size of a refrigerator you Know call it 5 or 10 years ago you were Looking at maybe $10 million and having To wait several years to get that to Orbit today you're looking at pricing That at just over a million dollars and I mean SpaceX is launching nearly every Day or even multiple times a day now I Think in my knowledge what really has Happened is the Falcon 99 being Relable has dramatically both lowered Cost and increased frequency of the two Things that you mentioned really SpaceX Being based in Los Angeles what I've Noticed is a lot of the engineers that Were at SpaceX I mean SpaceX has been Around for a long time now um have now Started to spin out and create their own Startups so um you know I noticed the in A similar Trend in 2009 which was 4 Years after Amazon web service has Launched AWS suddenly the cost of Creating a startup went from about $5
Million to $500,000 the exact same Dynamic of what we're seeing in Launching in space right now a 90% Reduction and then a further 90% Reduction and what we saw starting in 2009 was this kind of Cambrian explosion Of startups creating companies that Couldn't have been created before and I've noticed the same Trend in space as SpaceX has made it 90% % cheaper Suddenly people have ideas that wouldn't Have been practical before does that Sound reasonable to you as a thesis 100% Right it all comes down to you could get To space much more often for a much Lower price point and the brilliant Engineers who pioneered that are now Saying well I want to go put things in Space and I want to keep this momentum Up and you're actually from Los Angeles Right originally yes that's right I'm a A valley boy grew up in Sherman Oaks and And you're creating your company here y La why wouldn't you go build this in Silicon Valley or New York or somewhere Else look I I lived in the Bay Area for Many years I lived on the east coast and At the end of the day it was not just About hey I want to come home uh to Where I grew up in LA but it really came Down to the density of the talent in Los Angeles and look you mentioned SpaceX Tremendous amount of amazing talent my Co-founder came from SpaceX and spent in
The bulk of his career there but it's Not just SpaceX I think everybody Forgets we have keltech and JPL right in Our backyard here in LA and we have this Amazing concentration of fabulous Universities everything from UCLA to USC To Pepperdine to all these other schools Right here where all those students are Being inspired every day by all of these Companies like SpaceX popping up and Then finally you can't forget about the Traditional Aerospace side right the Companies like north of Grumman and Lockeed Martin and all these others have Always historically been in the LA area In fact North or grumman's headquarters Is called space Park and that's located In the center of La when you think about The pioneers of space you think of Howard Hughes and of course Hughes Aircraft is here when I talk with Investors the very first thought that Investors have about Los Angeles is Hollywood and Hollywood is such a small Part of LA and I always try to remind People that we design the rockets that Put a man on the moon in Los Angeles JPL For people who don't know is the jet Propulsion laboratory it's the National Laboratory for where they design the Propulsion that figured out how to get Rockets to the moon and and it was a Huge um advantage to the United States Having it here Caltech of course one of
The leading if not the leading scientist School in the United States and that Partnership and collaboration was really Important so you talked a little bit About living in Northern California Maybe just before we go into Apex you Could tell us a little bit about your Journey like what have you done in your Past and why did space Intrigue you Absolutely well a grou up here in Los Angeles and I have to say as a kid Growing up here in La the fact that we Were surrounded by this space ecosystem Was apparent even back then decades ago And I always love the idea of space but I frankly shied away from it for many Many years and the reason was everything That you outlined before right the cost To get the orbit was too high the Frequency was not high enough and really The only people decades ago going to Space were government agencies or really Wealthy billionaires and I was neither Of those so uh after college I ended up Moving to the Bay Area focused on Software actually and I started a Company up in the Bay Area started Working on it in 2015 called synaps and It was applying artificial intelligence And computer vision to different National Security applications so we Looked at everything from how could we Help streamline airport security working With organizations like TSA or how could
We help better analyze footage coming Off of drones and a little bit on Satellite imagery as well but frankly in 2015 as we mentioned that Cambrian Explosion hadn't quite happened yet and There just wasn't that much there I grew That company over several years and uh You know for me one of my big learnings Was if you're going to go start a Company like there's no fun in a company That's just kind of chugging along in This steady state and I'm somebody if I'm going to do something I put my 200 My 300% into it and if you're going to Do that you want to aim really big and My company synaps it was doing well but It wasn't taking off like a rocket ship Not to use a space analogy but you kind Of have to And realized that at the end of the day The best outcome for that company was Going to find it a new home and we were Very fortunate to have uh worked with a Company called palente here a handful of Times and they had approached us about Wanting to buy the company and we moved Forward and sold it to them uh right as Covid was hitting in 2020 and as that Happened join palente here and had the Opportunity to work on several different Programs where we were analyzing Downstream satellite data and for me the First time I kind of started to dabble On that when I was a palent here my
First instinct was oh I've looked at This before you know it's just some Government agencies or some wealthy People like there's not that much of a Market here but in 2020 I was completely Taken back I was wrong and I started Realizing that there was all of the Satellite data suddenly that had Appeared between 2015 and 2020 right Cambr explosion had finally taken place And all of these new companies were Emerging all these commercial entities Not just government were putting Satellites into orbit we're sending Their data I got to start working with All of this data and for me it was Almost all these childhood memories Started coming back where I said okay I Used to love the idea of space but all Of the sudden I was seeing companies That had raised a similar amount of Money that I had raised at my last Company synapse were putting satellites Into orbit and I thought there's nothing More promising that I could do than go And try to engage in that Industry hey startups you ever noticed How successful businesses are constantly Evolving well that's because they add Fresh features to get their customers Excited and that's why I am all in on Squarespace and you should be too Squarespace is adding new features and Revolutionizing their platform all the
Time I've told you this before this Includes powering all their tools with AI you guessed it and one of my Favorites this is incredible is Blueprint AI yes it's their guided Design system for building a new website It's fast it's custom and it's built Specifically for your business needs They' put over a billion design Combinations at your fingertips so you Get an online presence that's unique to Your brand we used it to build our own Founder University website the process Was so simple we were prompted through a Series of questions and then blueprint AI took control tailoring everything to Our preferences from website structure To the color scheme very important for Me and from Design Elements to font Pairings I love fonts by the way it's Just one of the things I'm into boom Within minutes we had a Sleek new Website ready to go live so check out Squarespace.com twist for a free trial And make sure you try this blueprint AI Tool It's amazing And when you're ready To launch go to squarespace.com / twist To get 10% off your first website or Domain purchase that's squarespace.com Twist and just all you know to your Horns since I know your background your MIT undergrad your Stanford uh business School but Max Bassie uh if I pronounced His surname correctly um he really has a
Specific background that was useful to Use so maybe we could talk about Max and How you guys came together and why his Background is so vital to what you do Absolutely so I remember um when I was Very early a paler um so this is many Many years ago this back in early 2020 I Was still living in the Bay Area I came Down to Los Angeles to visit a good Friend of mine who I actually went to High school with and I was at my Friend's apartment and he was a Aerospace executive recruiter and his Roommate walks in uh who's Max who's now My co-founder and his uh roommate and I Just start talking and I was captivated And Max's backr it's been the bulk of His career at SpaceX and back when I had Met him in 2020 he actually had just Quit SpaceX and was moving up to the Bay Area to join Astra but he wasn't just Yet another engineer at SpaceX he had This incredibly unique role where he was The engineer in charge of taking a given Aerospace component and saying okay we Made one of these how do we go make one Of these a month or one a week or One A Day it was all about design for Manufacturing and scaling production and When I met I knew there was something Special about him he wasn't just that Engineering mindset I knew he you know There there was something I wanted to Work with the guy and we kept in touch
And he moved up to the Bay Area to scale Production at Astra focusing a lot on Their um uh it's called the EP system Basically a Thruster for satellites and Some other satellite components and we Kept talking and we we just started this Gravitational pull kept bringing us Together where we just kept Brainstorming these ideas well you are Filled with space-based analogies or Space Bas words to use so I'm going to I'm going to make you drink a beer every Time you do that um but let's dangerous Yeah let's specifically though talk About what you do because you're Mentioning that Max brings an expertise Of mass Manufacturing ability to produce a lot Of product in lower costs and I happen To know that's also his background That's what he did at SpaceX that's what He did at Astra so you saw that skill Set what does Apex do and why does his Manufact uring skill set matter so at Apex we build the core component of Satellites and the industry term for That is a satellite bus or satellite Platform and historically but those Platforms are not new they've been made For 50 years but they've never been made In a high production productized way so Max comes in and he takes the design for One of these satellite buses and we say Instead of building a bespoke one he
Brings his engineering Brilliance to say How do we turn this into a product we Put it on a production line and we go Build a whole lot of these for very very Efficiently the way that I kind of see It um from our previous conversation is This if you think of SpaceX reducing the Cost by 90% to launch you still need to Reduce the cost massively to satellites To get a lot of them out into space so You can have a frequency of cadence of Launching these things but if the cost Of the satellite is prohibitive you're Not going to launch as many and I think That's where you step in is that a fair Way of saying it that's exactly right And one thing that I'll add to that is It's both cost but it's also the Frequency so if you have the ability to Launch a rocket to get from Earth to Space call it every day but it takes you 5 years to build your satellite there's Going to be a lagging indicator where You're basically building all these and It takes 5 years before you're ready to Launch them the demand is there to Launch significant L faster and so you Mentioned that you're a satellite bus And from what I understand there's both A bus and there's payload so let's break It down for people payload might be a Camera it might be Optical equipment to Observe what's going on on the ground it Might be radar equipment which is doing
Observational data so like I assume that The people who build that stuff Specializ in that once they build that How were they in the past getting onto a Bus like how did all this happened Before and how are you planning to Disrupt the market that's exactly right These companies they specialize in their Payloads I mean even something like a Human life support module where you Literally have humans in space could be Considered a payload historically you go To your typical large primes right your Northrup your loeds and these are Fabulous companies they've been building Satellite buses for decades and they go They take your payload and they say Mark I'm going to go build you a satellite Bus that is perfect and bespoke and Exquisite just for your one payload and That's worked well however so roughly What was the cost of that so for you Know a lot of it comes down to size so Just to compare apples to apples let's Say it was a earth observation camera Right maybe something to monitor for you Know climate change to monitor the coast For example uh you would be looking at a Satellite bus costing somewhere $30 to $50 million and that's just for the bus Not for the camera and taking Five to six years to produce for what Okay so so 30 million plus to produce The bus the payload is how much in terms
Of total cost call it you know usually a Rough estimate is about half the cost Goes to the bus half goes to the Payloads 30 million $60 million to Launch a satellite and then call it you Have to pay for the launch right so then But I just want the cost of the Satellite so just the cost of satellite We already said the launch has come down By 90% so becoming a less critical Component of this although you need to You know book time on Falcon 9 and I'm Sure that's becoming competitive what do You imagine satellites are going to cost Going forward like what do you want to Do to bend the curve down I would love To see a world where there's more and More business cases enabled by satellit So single digit millions or even lower Is the world that I would love to see us Get to because that just enables more And more great businesses to launch Their today as we sit here in 2024 going into 2025 are there going to Be sub $10 million satellites launched Is that already happening it's all Already happening already happening that Means that your cost to manufacturers Below 5 million I mean I don't want to Put you on the spot to say how much your Cost and I will say we love price Transparency so you could actually go on Our website and see our pricing in real Time and I can add it to the shopping
Cart and buy it real literally you could Use Apple pay you could go check out With a credit card we actually just had Somebody do that a couple hours ago to Buy a satellite which is pH phenomenal But they started about $3.5 million okay So 3on that's the price that's not our Cost that's the price so that that is I Mean that's literally almost a 90% Reduction in the historical cost so There's I understand about 5,000 Satellites in in space is that about the Rough number that you have yes but There's more going up every day but yes How many do you think are being launched Per year right now like how is is that Going to go from 5,000 to 15,000 to 25,000 or is there a certain period of Time with which now we have enough Satellites and there's no more demand For it if you look at how the Market's Evolved over the years there's actually Been some interesting Trends so Historically if you rewind 5 or 10 years Because launch costs were so expensive People would usually launch one gigantic Satellite like think something that's Literally the size of like a school bus Absolutely massive and they would spend All this money to launch it and it would Last in orbit call it 20 some odd years But the problem is whatever like let's Say it was a camera taking photos of the Earth 20 years later you're still using
A 20-year-old camera so the you know Obviously the sensors have evolved Because launch costs have come way down The industry is Shifting towards this Idea of launching what they call a System of proliferated and a triable Smaller satellites so they could say hey Launch costs have come down instead of Launching one giant one let's go launch 100 or a th000 smaller ones so on a pure Uh just Market basis we're seeing an Exponential increase in the number of Individual satellites that are being Launched on top of that SpaceX is Launching more and more frequently which Means even more satellites can go up and On top of that SpaceX and other Companies are announcing things like Starship that are fundamental order Magnitude game changers for the amount Of mass that we could get from Earth up Into Space navigating the bead to be maze can Feel really tough huh you're trying to Hit the mark with all those top tier Executives you want them to pay Attention to your Enterprise product but Where can you find all those big fish The whales the ones who call the shots And make the buying decisions for Corporations for startups and everybody In between well here's where LinkedIn Ads is going to solve that problem for You and I've used this it is one of my
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Launching Cube SATs that are the size of Like lunchboxes right so there's going To be a proliferation in size and types Of satellites launched you're trying to Standardize that right you're trying to Produce a more standard busts so that People who want to get stuff to space Like can more easily designed things to Go to space is that kind of roughly what You're doing that's precisely right so So we don't build every kind of Satellite we narrow the scope to what we See as kind of the Three core areas of The market what goes on your bus like What is included yes so think of it as Everything that you need to make a Payload function in space so what I mean By that is we give the payload which Could be a camera for example we give it Power we let it know where it is we let It communicate with the ground we let it Move around in space uh we give it Thermal capacity so it could you know Exude heat Etc as I understand it the Satellite that gets launched today I Mean it is an interesting thing you say Like historically if I launch a 20-year Satellite and I had a camera on there I Mean imagine having your iPhone with Your camera on it have to last for 20 Years while technolog is moving on I Mean there's kind of a good analogy I Can see which is my car like if you buy A car historically the entertainment
System that you had was outdated by the Time the car even launched and then 5 Years after you own the car AR you're Like why does it have this shitty uh you Know entertainment system and now with Things like the Tesla they launch it With updatable software right so surely That's going to happen more in space but The hardware itself can't really be Replaced I think satellites launching Now last in into low earth orbit last About five years is that right that's Precisely right and that's driven by two Things so first is if you're closer to Earth gravity is pulling you down so you Have to constantly Push Up Against Gravity to stay in orbit and two is it's Exactly what you said people are Realizing because the cost has come down And the frequency has gone up the Business model now makes sense to Just Launch a new satellite every 5 years Instead of trying to say oh let's keep This one going another few years the Buses combined with payload that you're Launching today are designed to launch In low earth orbit can you talk about Leo low earth orbit how far away that is How many of the satellites that exist in Space are in Leo versus other orbits Absolutely so there's a few different Orbits and the orbits the easiest way to Think about them is how close or far you Are from Earth the closest orbit to
Earth that you a satellite usually Exists in is low earth orbit or Leo and That is call it 4 or 500 km uh of Altitude and if you think about it like That's not that high up right like you Could go drive 4 or 500 kmet in a single Day in a car so it's it's something That's not that far away and if you're That close to something the benefits of That are it's much easier if you have a Camera to see the Earth because you Don't have to zoom in as far if you have A communications platform and you're Trying to you know uh let iot devices Connect or provide internet access the Amount of time it takes the radio wave To transmit is much smaller so you have A better signal Etc the downsides of it However because you're closer to Earth You can't see as much of Earth at any Given point in time so you're basically Focusing on one little point so to get Global coverage of Earth you need a lot More satellites in Leo now if you go Higher in altitude to medium earth orbit Or geosynchronous orbit you have Something where you're basically able to Observe uh all of Earth that's visible Right so you see the whole earth and You're kind of much further away think Of it like 30,000 km so much further Distance where you could see all of the Earth and that's the benefit but then The downsides are takes more time to
Transmit you need a much higher quality Payload Etc so there's tradeoffs to both To give people Perspective there's about there's a Little bit under 600 satellites as I Understand it that are in Geospatial orbit and there's about 5,000 In Leo so like if you look at Leo Geo And moo Moo's I think 150 so really 90% of the market today is Leo right so that's the market yeah when When you hear people talk about um Satellites you're mostly talking about Leo and I assume that's where starlink Operates right because that's where most Of your communication for Earth is Because you want a shorter period of Time from Earth to be able to transfer Back to Earth for things like phone Calls or transferring data um as i y I Will say that's only a very recent Trend So if you rewind five or 10 years there Were most satellites were in Geo not In because of the cost of launch Leo has Been the booming market and and is Anticipated to be so I don't need History lesson we're focusing on the Future and the future of Apex so part of What you need to do as you described it Is you have the Earth and you you have a Satellite in Leo and the gravitational Force is pulling you back to Earth Constantly so you have to have Propulsion you have to have fuel that
Keeps you from and I assume you provide Do you provide that as that part of the Bus like the propulsion absolutely so The whole mentality that we have is is You can't have one bus that works for Everybody so you have to pick different Configuration packages it's like your Car analogy right if you're going to buy A car do you want the seat warmers you Want serus XM radio so different Customers depending on what they're Doing need different types of propulsion You could either get away with no Propulsion which means you're going to Deorbit much faster so the satellite Doesn't last as long you can use Something called electric propulsion Which is what my co-founder Max scaled Production up when he was at Astra that Basically keeps you at one point and Like pushes you up slowly or you can use Chemical propulsion which is much Stronger and pushes you much faster up And that's if you need to move around in Leo so it really depends on what you Need and so basically the satellite Orbits the earth it takes what 90ish Minutes 90 minutes okay and depending on Where you launch you could basically Cross over Earth multiple times a day Every point on Earth twice a day got so The most common launch is called Sun Synchronous and it basically means You're orbiting the Earth but slightly
Rotating as you do it so you go over Everywhere which is uh pretty useful if You think about the applications as I go Over the Earth I'm either transmitting Down or I'm pulling stuff up or I'm Observing what's happening on Earth I Actually might be observing what's Happening in space but let's focus on Earth for now so I need a way to power The camera or power my radar power I Presume it has to be solar right cuz you Couldn't have a long-term solution other Than solar power power is that right yes So think of it like uh you have solar Panels they charge a battery and then The battery provides power because when You're orbiting Earth you spend 45 Minutes in the sun right and then you Spend 45 minutes where the Earth is Blocking the Sun so you still need to Provide Power even when you're in the Shadow but you also need power when You're in the Sun so the battery helps Fill that Gap and you provide that as Well that's part of what you do Absolutely so what the hell's the Payload company doing payload the Payload company is making all the money Right so they're providing data for Everything from uh Financial firms to Monitor how many cars are in the Walmart Parking lot all the way to climate Change uh all the way to manufacturing Uh you know drugs in space all the way
To defense Applications okay everybody I got an Amazing announcements I'm doing a jam Session with jcal on this very podcast You're going to get to join me on air on This week in startups you can apply and There's only a couple of rules here you Got to have less than $2 million in Funding so we want early stage startups And you've got to have an awesome Tech Domain name if you've got those two Things you can apply to come on air here And do a jam session with J what's a jam Session you tell me about your business I ask you questions you tell me about What you're struggling with I give you Answers I give you ideas of how to solve Your problems or how to grow your Business this is going to be an amazing Episode coming out this summer go to get . Tejon get g. Tejon and remember only two rules you Got to have a tech domain name which is An awesome domain name to have a lot of Great companies like rabbit are using it We're using it for founder Fridays and You just have to have under two million In funding we're looking for early stage Startups to jam out where did the jam Session come from the jam session was Something Travis and Chris Saka and I And other people used to do we just hang Out and talk about our businesses 20
Years ago when we're trying to make our Way in the world and now it's your Chance what is it a jam session why Should you care great advice and you get Showcased on this weekend startups what Do you do right now you go to get. Tejon I have to ask it so first of all Do you have any satellites already in Space like is this real or you guys just Have a pipe dream to manufacture this Stuff we do about 60 days ago we Launched our very first satellite bus Platform to orbit this is uh probably uh A very this is probably the proudest Moment for the company where my baby the Satellite separating on a oneway trip to Space that's a real video that's a real Video provided by SpaceX so there it Goes it floats away uh it's moving Really fast right several kilometers per Second but obviously you can't really See anything that's relative so it Springs off and it begins transmitting And then a few days later we actually uh Turned on the payloads so on this first Mission we had a few different customer Payloads the payload I was most excited About was our own payload which is a Selfie camera and you could see the Tweet uh that we pulled up where uh we Downloaded the selfie taken from the Satellite you could see Earth in the Background um and so and that's actually Can you describe what I'm looking at
That's not the Earth but obviously part Of your satellite absolutely so uh the Way the satellite works is you have Solar panels that deploy so what you're Looking at is the back of a solar panel That's deployed the strut that's Sticking up keeps it steady and then on The back of the solar panel you could See the American flag uh our logo and Then uh what's actually pretty cool most People don't realize this the bottom Left it's a photo of our team uh on the Day that we finished building the Satellite and back then the team was Less than 20 people look you know your Company was only created two years ago Like how hard was it to go from just Starting a company to actually having a Thing in space cuz you said it was 3ish Million price so I I don't know what the Cost but let's assume it's I don't know 50 60% of that plus you have the payload That's a lot of money and a relatively Short period of time like give us some Perspective on having accomplish this so Uh the staying in the industry of space Is hard and uh let me just say that Saying is correct space is incredibly Hard there were a lot of sleepless Nights and literally Blood Sweat and Tears to pull it off but we did Fundamentally right like I love space Max loves space we all everyone in the Company loves space but we're not
Starting a company because we love space We're starting a company because we see A phenomenal opportunity to open up and Democratize access to Space of the magnitude of how difficult It was to launch what was it from when You said okay I mean forget like company Formation and what is our strategy on Raising money but you're like okay we Have some money y start start the clock To actually getting something launch in Space and how impressive is that Relative to what other people take so The number one uh thing that we focused On was how quickly could we get the Satellite into orbit so that was our North Star historically we talked to a Lot of experts and they said you should Estimate about 3 years and about $50 Million to get your first satellite to Orbit we did it in 12 months and we Ended up spending well under $10 million To get that first satellite to Orbit that was hard yeah so I imagine I Imagine it's not something I could have Done so hats off to you uh But so under $10 million implies that You raised money so let's talk a little Bit about Venture Capital who did you Raise from you know when did you raise It what's publicly available yes so uh I Was fortunate after palent here I spent About a year and a half exploring this Idea at a venture capital firm called
Village Global who invested in my last Company so they were the very first Check-in uh they kind of believed in it From the beginning uh as our preed we Immediately then raised our seed round In September of 2 to and that's really When the company started and that was Led by Andre and Horwitz so um we' been Talking to them for a while about this Concept they everything Mark you said About how space had this camber Explosion and everything is changing They believe wholeheartedly and uh they Wanted to uh you know put their money Where their mouth was and invest in us So we're very fortunate um we made great Progress and then uh about nine months Later in June uh we raised our series a And that was co-led by Andries and Horwitz as well as Shield Capital um and Uh we've been Off to the Races ever Since and I will say uh fundraising is Never easy but we don't like to Celebrate fundraising right we like to Celebrate our core Milestones of what We've done with the company and I think That mindset has been something that Everyone in the company is really Embodied so the question I get the most About space because we've been investing In space companies we're very interested In the category um the question I get The most asked by my investors is about Capex they're like can you really back
Space related companies surely that's Going to take a lot of capital Expenditure give us some sense of that And why should anyone give you money so Uh it's a great question uh the nice Thing about satellites and satellite Buses are uh we are able to make money On every satellite that we sell so There's actually positive unit economics Tied into all of them and what we're Able to do is we work with our customers And we try to be very very transparent And we say look here's what we're Charging you for the satellite bus we Need to go pay for this percentage of That dollar amount You' already said It's $3.5 million okay so somewhere Somewhere between $1 to $2 million must Be the material and labor precisely you Know so I don't need to pinpoint that Exact number but let's say somewhere Between one to two and let's say you Want to produce 10 in a year you know You're talking about10 to2 million just In low volume In materials so that's what I mean by Capex right like a traditional software Company raises money but then it Launches it software at 80 90% gross Margin how do people get comfortable With the capex requirement cuz surely You're going to need $500 million if you Continue to scale it comes down to Really having our customers early right
So we're not just building this and Hoping they come like we have met the Customers we know they're going to pay Us and then working with our customer to Get paid by them early so prepayments Milestone based payments and then of Course final delivery payments as well But what that means is from our Perspective on the cash flow side before We spend money with the supplier we're Making sure we bring money in from our Customers and we we're very upfront About this right because we want our Customers to trust that we're going to Be around for a very long time and be Their supplier long term so it ends up Being very mutually beneficial uh to Make sure that cash flow uh it does not Become burdensome it seems like having Launched and proven that you could Launch a satellite was an important way To then go to customers who would then Do prepayments because if you're going To do a prepayment or Milestone based Payment but you aren't sure it's Actually going to work versus being able To demon is that why you did it is that Partially why you did it I like to joke The biggest hobby of everybody in the Aerospace industry is to overpromise and Underd deliver like people love doing That so what we wanted to do was instead Of just saying good things we actually Wanted to put our you know do the work
And actually launch it and prove that it Worked now we were very fortunate to Have some customers uh pay us to be on That first satellite that you saw we Also were very fortunate to have uh Other customers buy full satellites from Us before we ever launched that being Said everyone really wanted to see that It worked and that proof Point has then Led into uh you know um a lot of Excitement the other questions that I Tend to get a lot from investors is they Imagine Space means two things number one they Imagine it's mostly government and Military and can you really back Companies that are mostly serving Government and Military is it is the Satellite industry or is the space Industry mostly government and Military There's a lot of government and Military But there's a lot more commercial so uh I think what what everybody forgets is How critical everyday life is dependent On satellite infrastructure and a lot of A commercial satellite infrastructure That's up there so everything from you Know understanding how uh the climate is Changing all the way to mapping out if You're going to go on a hike and where You're going and different trails and Roads Etc all enabled by a lot of these Commercial satellite operators now of Course the government is going to be a
Major customer as well but I think Everybody forgets the day-to-day life is Really enabled by a lot of these Commercial operators the stats that I Have they might be different than what You have is that it's about 77% commercial 23% military um dual use Has been the history of the Venture Capital industry it drove the chip Industry it drove the PC industry it Drove a lot of the software industry so Um I think a lot of people forget how Important dual use is and government can Be an important source of innovation and Capital the same time you're developing Commercial use cases but aren't you just Competing against SpaceX so SpaceX we See as a major enabler of us right they Obviously launch and they're putting Satellites up they also run their own Constellation which is something like Starlink but that is fundamentally Different than being a bus vendor now we Might have customers who buy a satellite Bus and want to provide internet Connectivity and they've carved out a Niche use case that's different than Starlink and that's great for them but We're playing it we're all playing in The same ball game of let's put Something in space but we're playing at Different positions right and it's very Collab Aborative in a way I would just say I
Think starlink is probably driving your Market and the reason I say that is like The minute costs get reduced new use Cases always come about this is true in Any technology market right so the Things that you can't imagine until Things are cheaper so the fact that Starlink exists created a market for Communications on boats or in remote Locations where they were cost Prohibitive before and the minute that You do that L you put pressure on Everyone else in the industry to be able To provide cheaper satellites cheaper Communication so they're going to need Lowcost bus manufacturers they're going To need lowcost satellite if they're Going to compete with SpaceX in many Ways I think it should drive the market That's exactly how we see it and it's Happening Righta market today like I don't have That data yeah so uh right now if you Look at just what people are spending on Just buses so not over like overall Satellite markets in the trillion Because you're looking at all of the Applications but just what we do on Buying satellite buses so excluding People who build them themselves you Looking at uh well over $30 billion per Year an annual spend um pretty big Market yes so what what I would say is Um uh we can't talk about most of our
Customers but we can talk about some uh One the most recent one we just Announced is a company called uh Booz Allen Hamilton so they're a very large Defense Prime uh another company that We've been able to announce is uh a Smaller company called uboa they make Edge compute systems for space and you Know that's a great example of one Defense uh one commercial and uh you Know they're working very Synergistically together uh they're both On the very first satellite that's Currently on orbit and it's amazing it's What you said it's the Dual use side Where you know government might push Something forward and then the Commercial takes that and finds all These great business models on top of it They keep building off each other to Give people some scale historically There was about 30 satellites launched Into geospatial orbit per year 30 per Year geospatial orbit is about 10 to 15 Per year right now so like these really Big expensive systems built by the North Groomman and Boeing and other big primes It was really a small Market incredibly Expensive hugely valuable I think the Entire industry is being dis disrupted In you know kind of a mors law sort of Way you know driving down costs Increasing performance increasing the Type of stuff that's going to space our
Imagination today is really things like Com so it's like cell phone Communication you're used to satellite Phones data transfer Internet it's Things like Earth observation Earth Observation isn't it's critical it's Like knowing where the houth are Attacking boats coming around the Red Sea turns out it actually matters or Monitoring The Straits of Mala near Singapore or the the width of the Panama Canal like we know all of this stuff Matters it matters to hedge funds it Matters to oil companies it matters to Government also if you look at the Recent War where Iran for the first time In history directly tried to attack Israel um you know they had these exom Magnetic Uh defense systems that were able to Shoot down um the missiles before they Entered Earth atmosphere and so you Think about military capabilities will Increasingly require sophistication in Space so I imagine governments are going To increase this so given all of this um People then can't imagine what's coming Next now I know some of the other use Cases I was hoping you might be able to Talk about some of them if if you're Knowledgeable if not we won't spend any Time on it but um you know I know There's companies like vaa which are Looking at doing pharmaceutical
Manufacturing in space in a zero gravity Environment I know that um there are Companies like AST Forge I think which Is looking to mine asteroids and bring Materials back to the like talk a little Bit about what what has this Market Become I think it really all stems from What you said earlier which is as cost Goes down and frequency goes up more and More business models begin to make sense So you have companies like the two that You just mentioned are perfect examples If you're manufacturing drugs in space What it really comes down to for those Pharmaceuticals is well what's the cost Verus what's somebody willing to pay and Like what are the benefits and they've Realized that in zero gravity you have Different crystallization of certain Pharmaceuticals that make them much more Effective and if they're more effective Well insurance companies will pay a lot More for that because it'll help a lot More people and save a lot of lives so That is something that frankly 5 years Ago that business model didn't make any Sense today because the costs have come Way down that business model makes a Whole lot of sense and we're only going To see more and more go in that Direction another great example is um For every electronic device in the world Rare earth metals things like Platinum Are key to enabling them there's a
Finite Supply on Earth there's pretty Much an unlimited Supply out in the Galaxy and the idea of asteroid mining I Mean that's been from the dawn of Science Fiction I would argue has been a Dream of everybody but the business Model frankly never made sense until now All of the sudden you could get a uh Launch to space a lower cost saddle bus You could actually build the mining tool Send it back to Earth all for something That is less than the price of mining Platinum here on Earth so fundamentally Like these are just two examples of what I think are some of the coolest business Models that I have seen um we are at the Brink of so many more of these ideas Beginning to emerge and what I think a Lot of people don't know is that a lot Of these rare earth metals are not Easily available to Western countries Like a lot of them happen to be in China And happen to be in Russia and so I know That there's a big initiative from the United States from Western Europe to see Whether or not you can start to mind Some of this from from space one of the Areas that I know is kind of a little Futuristic but maybe we could give a Taste to people is this area of Cy lunar Orbits and the idea that increasingly You might have satellites around the Moon you might have things orbiting the Moon why would this exist why does it
Matter cuz I imagine it could be a Future market for you well I I'll turn It back Mark with a question for you if You could go live on mars or at least Take a vacation to Mars would You no Really okay yeah I know I know I'm Supposed to say yes I'm on teamer I I Was trying to tee you up for a yes but We'll take it we'll take it Hypothetically let's say you wanted to Go take just a short vacation to Mars to Get there right you can either try to go Entirely from Earth and go all the way There to Venus or wherever you might Want to go realistically what makes a Lot more sense is to have a layover Right and you have a layover at Somewhere somewhere nearby where you get Out of Earth's gravitational pole and You're able to refuel and go somewhere Else turns out the Moon is a really good Spot for a lot of those things the moon Also has some amazing resources like Helium 3 which some startups are uh Thinking about mining um it also might Be a place where humans one day might Want to set up shop and do certain Things Etc to enable all of that though We need infrastructure not just on the Moon but around the Moon that means Think of every satellite we have over Earth who's monitoring the Earth Monitoring what's coming near the Earth Providing Communications to the Earth
All of those things you effectively need To replicate them out near the moon as Well and that's considered CIS lunar so Down the line we're seeing increased Right now it's a lot of people talking About it and starting to take action There and that's something where I would Love to see our satellite buses and Space access rockets and this entire Market evolving Beyond just Earth but to The Moon to Mars and beyond that to Enable all of those things as someone Who lives in Los Angeles because you Know they always say that the future is Already here it's just unevenly Distributed right I always say this to Like my family who doesn't work in the Tech sector like the stuff that's coming In just 3 to five years is really Mind-boggling so living in La I'm seeing A lot more companies developing vehicles For uh driving on the moon lunar Vehicles I'm seeing compan that are Trying to do robotics that can both work On the space station but also work on The moon and so they're having to design On Earth uh a simulated environment of What does it look like and feel like on The moon to drive around to prove Whether or not your equipment works I Think we are gearing up for a lot more To be happening in and around the Moon Both extracting materials and eventually Like so what is explained to me is that
Because because the moon has less Gravitational force it actually becomes A great refueling area so you can take a Rocket to the moon uh you can then um Refuel and then launch from the Moon to Go somewhere else further out into uh Space for mining purposes or for your Vacation to Mars while I'm in the south Of France um and uh I think it's it's Ner than people think and I think it's a Really exciting opportunity I think a Lot of great startups are to be created To take advantage of these kind of Opportunities um you you today um you're You've launched one satellite you have Other a satellite you've launched the Full satellite but you produce your bus So I presume you've now got a standard Process for how you build the bus um Maybe you could talk about what the Throughput could be like how many of These could you build and I understand Maybe you have a little video that could Show us what your current facility looks Like look we started in Los Angeles and A a small facility in Culver City uh Which is I would argue the heart of LA And that facility is phenomenal and it Lets us uh build basically one satellite Bus at a time so we we kind of peak out There at about uh 10 satellites per year The facility that you're seeing right Now is impli a Vista about 10 minutes Away from our current facility and that
Will let us scale to building uh well Over 150 vehicles per year at its peak So we're just beginning to move in there Now but part of the reason for you know Look we've only been around 18 months We're already new moving into our new Facility is the demand that we're seeing Because of the reduction and launch cost The new business models that are coming Together for more and more satellites Going to orbit is enormous and now we Need to go produce those products to Actually deliver to those customers That's a pretty massive Improvement in Terms of the Cadence of ability to Manufacture buses from what you said in The past so I really hope for your sake I hope for the industry sake that your Thesis is correct that by standardizing The bus lowering the cost increasing the Cadence we as an industry we as a Country we as the technology ecosystem Can start doing a lot more launches Getting a lot more into space at a lower Cost because I think it will then spur Software companies cuz once you have the Hardware out there now you can design And develop more software and as I Understand I I've spoken with boo Allen In the past I know part of what they Want to do is develop software in space And so once the hardware exists then you See application layer stuff and I think That's really going to be part of our
Future and I hope to see more of that in The years ahead you today uh you do About a 250 kilg is what you can support So the satellite bus platform itself is About 100 kg and can support another 150 Kilog of payload cameras sensors Whatever you may want and then we go up In size from there so that's like I Don't know I can't do the math is that Like uh 220 LBS or something like that for the Uh satellite bus itself yes and then for Once you attach everything to it you Think for 500 lb I understand that your Future is to develop bigger buses and Maybe you could talk about that why Would you produce them how big would They be when when are those available so The way that people monitor the cost of Launch it's dollar per kilogram to orbit And when we talk about the cost to get To orbit going down it's really you know The cost per kilogram going far down the Result of that is that Trends continuing Which means that people are now able to Launch better and better payloads and a Better payload usually means it's Heavier it's physically bigger Etc so We're now working on our new platforms Called Nova and Comet which you could See here that are double the size of Aries and then quadruple for Comet the Size of Aries so we're seeing the market Demand where people say well costs have
Gone down let me launch something bigger And we're meeting that market demand and I guess what we're seeing here on the Screen you are able to be launched into Leo Geo CIS lunar if if as to you're Able to launch not only on we can see Falcon 9 here but any of these other Platforms so you're kind of agnostic to How you get up but it seems like most Launches are on Falcon 9 is that right That's right so commercial launches are Almost all Falcon 9 government launches They try to diversify a little bit bit So we're seeing a few more providers and It's important to be we don't like Vendor lock in we want everything to be As standardized as possible let's talk About your company how big is it today How many people are you growing staff Are you hiring what kind of people are You hiring who should reach out to you How should they reach out to you we're Approaching 50 people right now we are Actively hiring we have a bunch of jaw WS on the website Mark you're very Knowledgeable about the space if you Want a job you know we're in La so uh Come on by we'd love to hire you Um so yeah we're we're actively hiring For all roles everything from Engineering to uh BD to Finance venture capitalist exactly help Us raise more money Mark so you're your Um your hiring you'll grow to how many
People did you say so at the end of this Year we're looking at approaching a 100 Okay so you're going to double yes it's All sorts of people business people Marketing people Finance people but I Assume a lot of like engineers and People designing Manufacturing and and The lot the majority is on the Engineering and the production side so Engineers will Design the vehicles and Then the production team says how do we Build them at scale and then of course Uh we get some people on the BD and the GNA side to help sell more of the Vehicles and keep the company running You have a website or how would people Apply for jobs yes so go on our website It's apex apex space Space.com you could see all the open JW Wrecks that we have there learn a little Bit more about the company and one plug That I'll put in as part of that is if You go on our website you could actually Configure your satellite bus online Which is very new for this industry so You could pick the one that you want you Could reserve it with a credit card so Mark if you're ready to buy your Satellite today go let's do it but um it Really democratizes access which again Is one of the core tenants of what we're Trying to do here I guess one of the Things you'll do at some point is raise More Venture Capital how much Capital
Does a company like this ultimately Require so one of the things that I'm Proud of about our company is like we do Have a sometimes a maniacal focus on Unit economics and we say we're not just Building something as a science project We're building something because there's A real fundamental business so we're in A very healthy financial position where You know we're able to make money on Satellites that we sell reinvest that Into the company and keep growing down The line as we see demand to go you know Beyond 100 satellites a year into much Larger quantities we'll want to bring on More Capital to just move faster in Scale but you know the time right now It's we're very fortunate to be in a Position where we don't need to be uh Looking for investors but we are looking To hire people the easy math for me that I can do in my head you said it was $3.5 Million per uh the price tag so you sell 10 of them there's 35 million you send Hundred of them let me assume some price Reduction to $300 million market so if There's a market for 100 plus of these And it sounds like there is like you Could be doing hundreds of millions of Revenue you've got to make sure you have The margin let's talk about competition Before we WP like who else is out here Gunning for you so what what's so Interesting is the traditional satellite
Bus manufacturers out there right you Mentioned them the Northrup the locks Etc they all make satellite buses They're competing on a lot of the same Contracts that we compete on however Many of the people that are buying the Satellite buses from them are frustrated By the speed the lack of cost Transparency Etc so often what we're Seeing is the people who would Traditionally be competitors are now Becoming our collaborators we are a pure Play satellite bus platform vendor Meaning we are happy to supply to any of The companies who were serving those end Customers and we end up becoming an Enabler for them so it's a little Interesting where you have a market Where you're both competing but then Also collaborating with the same Entities um and that that's really who We see ourselves coming up against There's some other amazing companies out There who have laid a great foundation In this industry and are doing well but We see it as a massive Market with you Know room for more than one from what I Understand right now standardized bus Manufacturing for Leo you're the main Player that's gearing up to do that and If you're right about the market should Capture I think good market share There's other people focused on moo Right now and you know whether that
Becomes a more important Market or the Same importance um I think history will Tell us in the future but that's kind of The real difference I've seen as other People focus on moo while you're focus On Leo in I'm thrilled that Apex space Is based in Los Angeles I'm excited for All the opportunity that we all have in This great City I I have said to people A lot publicly and privately Los Angeles Had such a big moment from 2015 to maybe 2020 and it felt like in Co um we kind Of went into a cocoon as a city and I Think the reason is the the energy in Covid seemed to go to crypto and crypto Seem to gravitate towards New York maybe San Francisco but a lot of New York and Miami and the energy I see right now in Hard tech and in space in Los Angeles is Something I haven't seen in this city For 10 years the amount of people moving Here creating new companies Capital Going into the system I think it's a Really exciting time I'm thrilled that You're a part of it your Twitter handle So we can plug you if people want to Follow your journey is my name Ian Cinnamon so it's it's easy to remember Ian cinnamon such a unique memorable Name my handle is Mster Msus and I am a partner at upfront Ventures a la based Venture Capital firm So anyway thank you so much Ian for
Telling us more about Apex space and About the space Market overall thank you Mark great to be here
