The power of super communication with Charles Duhigg | E1938

How about you what's the most Embarrassing thing you can you can Remember everybody's flying out from LA To Sundance but I said you know what Guys I'm going to meet you there I get On the flight I got a middle seat I go I'm exhausted my friends are already There private jet blah blah blah put my Bag up I sit down in my middle seat and I feel a weird sensation like a Crunching sound then I feel wetness and Then I feel heat and then I jump up and I look down and there is a giant Starbucks cup and black coffee steaming In my seat oh my God and the woman in The window seat looks at me and goes oh Were you sitting there and I said where Your coffee was in my seat and then I Feel my ass is on Fu Fire I but the plane is taxiing like now At this point I run to the bathroom I Drop my drawers I see out of the corner Of my eye my my pasty White Irish ass is Red this is hot coffee ass is the name Of this Story this weekend startups is brought To you by LinkedIn jobs a business is Only as strong as its people and every Hire matters go to linkedin.com Twist to post your first job for free Terms and conditions apply mantle the AI Powered Equity management platform Designed for modern Founders and Operators get your first 12 months free

At withm man.com Twist and HubSpot if you're fundraising Be sure to check out the million dooll Pitch competition from HubSpot for Startups and HubSpot Ventures apply now At hubspot.com Million pitch all right everybody Welcome to this week in startups we've Got a delightful guest back on the show Charles doig is here you of course know Him he's a writer at the New Yorker he's Got a new book out super communicators And uh his first book uh he came on Episode 751 of this weekend startups ah Lifetime ago uh for the Power of Habit Right that was the the book we talked About back then yeah yeah a while ago How many welcome back to the show how Many copies that book sell that's got to Be a million seller hundreds of Thousands oh yeah no no um it's like I Think it's like uh 12 million across the World 12 milli Yeah yeah no I've been very very lucky It's been great so you return in that Case you return the Advance never happened in books yes no I Was I was um yeah no it was great it was Great it's really um I I'm very lucky to To have had that happen and and even bet More like I think the fact that that me And I'm sure you've experienced this as Well that when you when you're lucky Enough to sell that many copies you just

Hear from a lot of readers who say Things like look I found this book at Exactly the right time in my life i' Been drinking for years and this helps Me figure out how to get to AA and Change my habits and that's always like Super satisfying and rewarding and and That was it got picked up in the in the Startup and the business community in a Major way because in the world I live in Startups people are addicted to Efficiency and if a book comes out about Efficiency or Communications that's our Wheelous and so you've got a big Audience I think in the startup Community yeah no absolutely and that's Actually one of the reasons I wrote About I wanted to write about Communication for super communicators is Because is because I was hearing from a Lot of like startup folks I was hearing From a lot of managers saying you know I I have an MBA from Harvard Business School like I would hear from a lot of My classmates who would that say like Look like technical skills are no longer Valuable to us what makes all the Difference is our ability to communicate With other people be because no matter How good an engineer you are if you Cannot communicate and manage other Engineers it doesn't matter yeah 100 th 100% communication is the Wheelhouse and When you look back on the The Power of

Habit the core thing to take away from That is the systems you set up the Process is more important than your Goals or your hopes and dreams and Aspirations correct if I'm exctly right That's exactly right that if you pay Attention to these cues and these Rewards in your environment your habits Almost change automatically yes and and So and and it but it does mean focusing On the those things that oftentimes it's Easier for us not to focus on right like Like we get into the habit of having the Same thing for lunch every day we get Into the habit of either exercising or Not exercising and yeah and it and it Can feel very um pedantic to focus on These small things and yet you know it Doesn't matter what you eat today but it Does matter what you eat every single Day Right yeah and this is where you know if You want to eat healthier Uh you you have to create the systems Process by which this will happen I did This I just Dr my housekeeper how to Make a French omelet because this Happens to be one of my favorite things To eat for breakfast if not the my Favorite thing and I just tell her you Know what just put it outside my office It's three or four eggs if I happen to Skip it that day it's not the end of the World I give it to the dogs it's three

Eggs but I I don't go look in the Refrigerator for food for breakfast food I just get those three egg exactly and We actually have a bunch of apples like I love apples and I find that as long as I have enough apples around me I will Never eat anything unhealthy right Because because you're just you're Looking for something you're in the flow You're doing work you're thinking about Stuff you don't you don't want to Interrupt that with having to make a Decision and so just make it easy to do The right thing you know I I took a lot From the book um in my Venture Capital Firm so um as but one example of this I Just said you know our business is based On how many Founders we meet with and Then our decision making process and There's another book um super Forecasters I don't know if you know That book yeah yeah pretty it all Basically the premise there is um record How you make a decision so you can make Better decisions in the future that's Exactly right it would be the equivalent Of like um videotape Steph Curry Shooting threes in a game play the the Video back and you can learn something From it or Draymond Green settings Screens you get the idea so I just went On a Uh systems process inside my ventor firm And said how many applications for

Funding can we get how detailed can Those how many questions can we get Founders to answer and then how many of Them can we meet with over Zoom and sure enough we and then how do We qualify to make a decision-making Process and what I found was I'm now Seeing many more of the highly qualified Startups and Founders that I want to Meet with because I built a system to do It not just a random you know I I'm Going to try to do more meetings today I'm going to try do more meetings this Week I hired you know three or four Frontline people to just do the first Meeting with these Founders and qualify Them across a couple of actually 13 Variables and so that's the system or Process I set up and then you know the Outcomes take care of themselves if you Eat the apple you eat the OM that's Exactly right and what's interesting to Me is that so there are these things That we can assign metrics very easily Right like how many meetings are we Taking how many are we getting to the Next step how many are we investing in And I think that's really really useful And really important But there are also a set of soft skills That we can systematize where the Metrics are harder and so as a result What we tend to do is and again Conversation is a great example of this

Right we tend to rely on our Impressions Like was it a good conversation was that Not a good conversation did I get across What I wanted do I understand them and In in many ways when we press to squeeze That to give us a metric or to give us More information is when we start to Learn because our own intuition Have to be trained against something Objective right Otherwise we think that we're Genius hey Founders hey startups when You're hiring for your small business You want to find quality professionals Who are right for the role but I Understand it could be tough to find the Time and resources to find that perfect Hire that's why you want to check out You guessed it LinkedIn jobs LinkedIn Jobs gives you the tools to find the Right Professionals for your team faster And for free and Linkedin isn't just Some simple job board it helps you hire Professionals that you cannot find Anywhere else there's over a billion Members on LinkedIn now and they're in More than 200 countries and I know many Of you are leveraging different time Zones to get work done different GEOS to Find talent and Linkedin is the best Place to get eyeballs on your job Posting you know that even those who Aren't actively searching for a job will See your Ed why because LinkedIn knows

Who might want your job you know they Got a lot of AI machine learning going On over there so even if they're not Actively searching they're going to see Your role and you know what those are Some of the best candidates and did you Know that 70% of LinkedIn users don't Visit the other leading job sites if You're not looking on LinkedIn you're Looking in the wrong place and the best Part is when you use LinkedIn jobs 86% Of small businesses get a qualified Candidate in 24 hours so hire Professionals like a professional on LinkedIn LinkedIn jobs helps you get the Right people faster and guess what the First one's on your boy jcal post your First job for free linkedin.com twiist That's right linkedin.com twist to post Your job for free terms and conditions Do apply tell me about the types of Conversations um that you know you're Going to confront in your life because You've really started to organize this You tell it through uh as you do in your Books series of anecdotes and Individuals and heroes who are involved In this process I won't give all that up Because I want you to buy the book in Fact pause right now and just go over to Audible and buy it or buy it over at Amazon or your local bookstore whatever Your jam is we'll be here when you come Back from the pause super communicators

Uh and if you if you have rear power Habit by both um okay got the plug out Of the way I I love both of these books So that's all you need to know go buy it Books are the greatest deal ever by the Way I just want to give a shout out oh My gosh man yeah how many years you Suffer for this book tell me three years I spent I spent three years writing this Book and and like I think about this all The time I'll go buy a book for like $12 yeah and I'll read it in a day and a Half and I'm like oh man that author Spent four or five years like writing This novel and I just it's a great it's The Arbitrage there is ridiculous in Books cuz also you can give the book Away then to somebody and get like and You tell them like hey I got a lot out Of this book and you give it to somebody Now you get all that Goodwill or you Sell it resell it for six or seven bucks Now you're down to spaying six bucks for Six hours of listening or six hours of Reading it's a dollar an hour pack with Knowledge I mean it shout out to books That are high quality and I mean I've Have only written one and I'm working on Two now it is just such A large amount of work to get this you Took the approach of finding people you Studied the history of communications And who were some of the best Communicators in the world yeah turns

Out the job I was going to go for little Known fact I was going to go in the Police force New York City Police out of High school but then I decided I wanted To be an FBI agent so I was going to go To John J criminal justice and get my Masters in Psychology and forensic Psychology I I wound up getting into the Internet and the I went the different Direction but yeah FBI agents turn out To be super communicators um so let's Talk about you can take it either way You want the type of conversations we Have or maybe a bit about what you Learned about the history of people Getting really good at communications Convers abolutely and and it's not just FBI agents right there's this great um Story about Felix sagala this FBI agent Who is kind of a super negotiator but It's also the CIA one of my favorite Stories is about this guy Jim Lawler Who's a CIA officer and when he goes to The farm to do his training what he Realizes is that it's basically a Communication school right your job in The CIA is to communicate with other People in a way that you can create Trust and empathy and that you might Bring them something and say hey look We're hearing this out of Syria can you Tell me if it's true or not right it's Basically a communication job and so he Goes and he does the training and then

They send him over to Europe and it Turns out he is terrible terrible Recruiting spies like literally so bad That he'll go to parties and he'll start Chatting someone up and they're like I Think you're trying to recruit me for The CIA if you don't stop right now I'm Going to report you to the authorities And get you deported and he's just he's He's and so like and he had wanted his Whole life to be a CIA officer he'd Worked so hard to get this job and Eventually he meets this one woman um uh Yasmine who is from a Middle Eastern Nation she works in the foreign the Foreign Minister's office and she's in Town in Europe where they all are and And he takes her to lunch and he gets to Know her and he asks her like would you Consider working for the CIA and she Just freaks out and says absolutely not And he tells his bosses and his bosses Are like you're going to get fired like You're terrible at this job like you You've been here a year you've recruited No one and so he calls up he ask me and He's like will you have one more dinner With me and she says yes and he goes and He has dinner with her and she's super Glum and and he keeps trying to cheer Her up and it's not working right Because and then and then at some point He just gives up and he's like look this Isn't going to happen and he just starts

Being honest with her he starts telling Her about how how disappointed he is in Himself and and how frustrated he is That he's not good at this job and That's when for the first time she could Hear him and she says I want to help I Can do this and she becomes the best Asset in the Middle East over the next 20 years and okay so if we read into That interaction yeah there's a little Bit of vulnerability there's a little Bit of pacing so I happen to know a Little bit about this from my psychology Background and as from being a Journalist because as a journalist our Jobs like FBI agents Or an interviewer on the podcast is to Get information out of the host out the Subject make them feel comfortable and Even Pace them which I'm doing right now With you in this interview trying to Pace your level of energy and I always Tell people like the person's slow slow Down if the person's fast go fast so Maybe you could talk about what the CIA FBI learned about vulnerability Sharing uh empathy deep listening there There's a lot there and pacing there's a Ton of skills yeah and and super Communicators the book is really about These skills right because what we know Is that no one is born a great Communicator there's no personality type That makes you great communicator it's

Just a series of skills that you can Practice and make in habits and and so One of the first things that happened When we look at that Jim law or that CIA Example is you're exactly right one of The things he did is match her he Matched he matched this woman she was Feeling glum and he so he let himself Match her emotional state and what's Interesting about about this is that When researchers have looked at Communication and we're kind of living Through this golden age of understanding The Neurology of communication they Found that we tend to think of a Discussion as being about whatever we're Talking about about like one thing right But actually every conversation is M Every discussion is made up of different Kinds of conversations and those kinds Of conversations they tend to fall in One of three buckets there's these Practical conversations when we're Solving problems or making Plans conversations right exactly Exactly and then there's emotional Convers where I might tell you how I'm Feeling and I don't want you to solve my Feelings I want you to empathize and Then finally there's social Conversations which is about how we Relate to each other and how we relate To Society and what I think Jim Lawler the

CIA officer recognized during that meal Is she was feeling down and he was Trying to solve her problem she was in An emotional mindset having an emotional Conversation and he was being super Practical he was like oh no you don't Have to be worried like let's just um You know let's feel good let's remember All the places we went together yeah and It's only when he matched her and he got Emotional himself that they were able to Hear each other and within psychology as You know this is called the matching Principle that you have to have the same Kind of conversation at the same moment To connect yeah and this is where Connection's happening we have these Mirror neurons there's a whole Physiology to this absolutely all you Really need to know is that as humans Primates we mirror each other we imitate Each other and when we're in sync in Some way a connection is formed when we Experiencing things together this is why Like you can fall in love with you know There's just a hero syndrome like the The EMT who saves you or the firefighter Who saves you from like the fire burning Building they fall in love kind of thing It's a super intense moment in time you Connect on a very high level but it Happens actually in every conversation And every conversation is this moment to Either deepen a relationship or to

Damage a relationship that's exactly Right and it's known Within neuros is Known as neural entrainment and what's Interesting is that now what we can see Is we can actually watch people's brains When they're having conversation and we Can see that as people connect they Actually start to think alike their Neural activity becomes more and more Similar yes which actually makes sense When you think about it because if I Tell you about something I'm feeling you Actually experience that emotion a Little bit right or I tell you about an Idea you experience that idea our brains Are becoming entrained and the goal of a Conversation is to achieve that Entrainment because we are hard wired to Feel closer to each other more trusting Of each other we're High hardwired to Feel happier when we achieve that Entrainment because we're social animals This is why we went to the top of the Food chain and the species has done so Well we have this incredible desire need To to connect and the way we do it is Through conversation so okay sometimes You and your spouse you and your team at Work or you and a friend have a task List of things you got to get done you Got to get the house clean you you got College applications done you're Planning a trip with your friends Whatever it is at work you're going

Through whatever Project X is then you Have emotional conversations hey you and I uh we became friends and we're both Gen xers and you're struggling with Something with your kids your teenagers I'm struggling with one and we rely on Each other we have this emotional Conversation but I don't want you to Solve my kids problems I just want you To put your hand on my shoulder and say Yeah exactly yeah and acknowledge what You're feeling right be like look it's Hard it is hard to be a parent you're Going through like something that's Tough and like you're doing great but Like it's just hard right that feels so Good yeah what's the next one you said There is there three typ the social the Social which is about which is about how We relate to each other in the context Of society right like so so and it's and Not every conversation it every Discussion usually has a practical in a In an emotional part not every single One has a social part but actually There's a lot that do that we don't Realize it so if we're talking for Instance about if we're gossiping about Someone who's not here right or work Gladwell let's talk about malc oh that Guy right exactly Malcolm look at him He's he's doing Blue Apron commercials Now he's he's talking about blue apron On his podcast come on Malcolm hey man

We know you're not do a blue a come on You gotta pay the bills I know when I Heard Malcolm GLW do a blue APR for Commercials I was like I love it Podcasts are killing journalism yeah That's exactly right I mean just think About our what happened to our Profession I I convinced Sam Harris to Do a podcast like years ago and my book Agent uh Brockman was like what have you Done he has He won't submit a book he's making too Much money from this goddamn pocket I Was like Sam the world needs you to Publish a book stop with the goddamn Podcasting these are good problems to Have I mean it's a high class problem When you're talking about Sam or when You're talking about like H like how do We think about this issue we talk about Society all the time right like like you You and I we both live in the Bay Area And when we talk about San Francisco Right and and and the problems that San Francisco has I'm also I'm still kind of Bullish on San Francisco cuz I just love It the city so much like that's actually A social conversation because one of the Things we're talking about is how our How our perceptions are a little bit Different and the goal is not to Convince each other right I don't I Don't want to convince you that I'm Right and you convince me but to share

That to acknowledge those differences And learn something from it that's often A social conversation got it not a Debate where somebody has to win no in In fact both a good conversation is Never a debate right it or very Infrequently like the goal of a Conversation is not to convince the Other person that I'm right and you're Wrong or I'm smart and you're dumb or You should like me or you should you Should respect me the goal of Conversation is just to understand how You see the world a little bit to speak In such a way that you can understand How I see the world if we've done that We have succeeded and and the way to do That is to show people you're listening And to ask a follow-up Question that's for me without knowing How you rank them in the book to be able To have the person feel like you've Truly deeply listen to what they said Yes and then and then to ask a follow-up Question and and this uh which I do as An interviewer and I do it with friends Or whatever I will just repeat back to Them something they said and then I Think what is the most for the audience I think what is the question the Audience most wants to hear the answer To or that I can come up with a question That they would be really interested in The answer so it's either their question

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Free and you're going to lock in an Exclusive rate of $100 a month after Your first 12 months that's with man.com Twist for your first 12 months for see Why hundreds of Founders are switching To mantle right now in a social Situation what is the the role of humor Laughter and joking and there's Different types of joking obviously but I'm curious where in our in these Communications um and these styles of Conversations does the act of laughing About life and you know humor play a Role because oh it's huge kind of my Superpower people tell me is that I make The conversations funny and I drop a Joke in once in a while and I get Invited back to more dinner parties once In a while I go too far I don't get Invited back we got to do some damage Control but I was wondering if you could Tell me a little bit about the role of Humor and all of this absolutely ab and You're exactly right that proving that We're listening and asking questions and Asking the right kinds of questions and We can dig deeper into both of those Because there's a lot of science about How to do that how to do that better and How to do it right but to answer your Question about humor so one of the Things we know there's a guy named um uh A researcher named Provine who used to Be at the University of Rhode Island

He's now passed away he spent his whole Career basically studying laughter and One of the things that he discovered is That 80% of the time in conversations When we laugh it is is not in response To something funny right both of us have Laughed and this this gets to your Superpower is that both of us have Laughed in this conversation neither of Us have told a joke no we're not doing This is not a we're not in the cat Skills right now exactly exactly and and So what's happening when we laugh when We laugh we're showing the other person That we want to connect with them and When they laugh back they're showing us That they want to that they want to Return it that they want to connect back And that's neural entrainment is the Fancy word for this exactly exactly and So what's interesting is my guess is a Lot of those times at those dinner Parties what you're doing is you're Bringing levity to the conversation by Laughing about something that yes that Someone else might say the same thing or Hear the same thing and not laugh but You're bringing this levity you're Showing everyone hey I want to connect With you and then they laugh back and we All feel connected to each other and That's really important now if you Actually tell a joke and it's genuinely Funny that's even better right sure

Absolutely or anecdotes I mean I think You know when I think about Techniques um there are devices you and I use as writers you're a much more Successful writer than I am but uh you To your admissions suck at Communications you said the reason you Wrote the book is because your Conversations suck and are falling flat In your life and in your business life They totally were they totally were and That's exactly why you how could this is Perplexing to me I'm going to ask a Question on my behalf How could somebody Be a Transcendent top .1% Writer and be horrible at Communicating in person with words words You're good at words you know a lot of Journalists and you were a journalist And still are kind of a journalist so so You know answer I know the answer to the Question lot of journalist are terrible At it right so so I found I I what I Think it was was that I was Overconfident so I was at working at the New York Times and they made me a Manager and I was really good at like Strategy and planning and stuff like That but then people who were working With me would come and talk to me about Problems and I would instead of hearing Them as emotional conversations I would Try and solve their problem right away

And they would get way disgruntled right Or they would bring to me something that Was practical and I would think that They were just complaining about like Some emotional thing and and then the Same thing happened at home right I'd be I'd come home from work after a long day I'd complain to my wife about my day she Would offer me some good advice like why Don't you take your boss out to lunch And get to know him better and instead Of being able to hear what she was Saying I would get even more upset and Then she would get upset cuz I was upset With her good advice and it's because we Weren't having the same kind of Conversations at the same moment right Once we learn and and there's a couple Techniques for this so one of them is Asking questions you you brought this up And this is a great One super communicators ask 10 to 20 Times as many questions as the average Person and many of the questions they Ask are a special kind of question That's known as a deep question which Asks about our values or beliefs or Experiences which which can sound kind Of intimidating but it's as simple as if You meet someone who's a doctor instead Of saying where do you practice medicine Saying asking something like what made You decide to go to medical school or What do you love about practicing

Medicine was there something in your Childhood that led you to not be good at Communication sorry that that is Definitely deep question that is a deep Question but putting it aside um I could Yeah I could see I think I know the Issue that you were also you were you Had a BL side and I see this with a lot Of people who go to a certain get a get A master's degree from a certain University with certain Initials HBS you went to HBS now for people who Don't know Harvard Business School is Absurdly hard to get into they accept People you graduated 2000 or something 2003 okay I dated somebody who went to HBS I hung out with hbers I've spoken There three or four times this is the Most confident Yeah Competitive problemsolving group of Lunatics on the planet it's like taking The smartest kid in class who answers The question before the teacher finishes It and doesn't raise her hand and then Putting them all in the same building And telling exactly right you're gonna Change the world I and by the way Whoever answers the question fastest is Gonna get super duper Rich so you should Definitely practice answering it as fast As you can correct whoever figures out General AI whether it's Sam Alman or

Elon you know or somebody else they're Going to win a big prize so you were Part of the fast problemsolving group The problem is you went into a group of People who don't um that's not how they Solve problem they solve problems by Discussing it meditating on it and Brick By Brick Bird by Bird you know building a mental Framework and then they don't have the Courage to just go right to the answer It's as if you were a chess player with A 1600 rating playing with somebody Who's learning the Pieces you know or as an 800 rating You're just going way too fast for them And then that makes them feel small you Made those people feel like they weren't Smart and that sucks when your manager Does that is that what happened I think That that was an aspect of it but I Actually think the bigger thing is that It's it's like someone bringing you a Checkers board or a back gaming board And insisting that we play Chess where they would they would bring Me a problem an emotional problem and I Kept on insisting that it could be Solved practically got and it just can't That's what happens with my wife right Like like when when we get into this Thing with her when she mentions Something that she's feeling to me and I Try and solve her feelings oh you

Shouldn't feel that way or here's what You can do y it's not it's not so much That she feels little or scared it's That she feels like I'm actually not Listening to her and she's she wants to Play back gamon and I'm like nope we Only play chess in this family that's All we're gonna do and that's Frustrating right not Men Are from Mars Women Are from Venus or something let's Get into it let's let's let's let's talk About gender differences you do this Massive research and uh we won't say These are our personal opinions as far As we're Going we have no opinion on gender and Communication differences but what do The experts say you and I have been Married and have kids and yeah we have Our own thoughts on gender differences I'll tell you what actually the data Says what does the data say yeah so what The data says is that there's actually Very few differences in how genders Communicate it with a couple of Exceptions okay the first of which is What do you feel comfortable in so Everybody has this need everybody has This craving for neural entrainment Everybody has a deep questions proving That we're listening that works with Everyone but then the question is from a Cultural perspective where are you Comfortable where are you habituated and

For many men we get habituated into Practical conversations right into Problem solving got it and and for a Number of women again that get Habituated they they it's more Acceptable or it's or it's pressed on Them to be more comfortable having Emotional conversations and so when we Say Men Are from Mars Women Are from Venus it's actually not true it's that Everyone's from Earth but men might Spend more time on Mars and women might Spend more time on Venus but that Doesn't mean it's something about our Brains it doesn't mean it's part of our Character it means simply that we've Been inculcated with it right the same Thing is true across different cultures So if you if you were to go to you know There's a question that I ask whenever I Give speeches which is turn to the Person next to you and describe the ask And answer the last time you cried in Front of another person and people love This exercise it's a famous exercise by This guy Nicholas EP at University of Chicago in Asia in Japan that does not Work like people are not comfortable Talking about the last time they cried They are comfortable talking about the Last time they saw their parents cry ah Whereas whereas in the US that actually Might feel kind of like a betrayal right Yeah and so but that doesn't mean that

Like we have a different tolerance for Intimacy it means that we are these Cultures teach us different norms and Part of being a good communicator is Just recognizing those Norms just Recognizing this is the norm I'm steeped In this is the norm you're steeped in But we're not bound by them fascinating So and I wonder because I've heard this Uh from some enlightened friends of mine Who've had longlasting marriages is that The style difference that we're Referring to here men are sent to Mars Women are sent to Venus but we both Could go to either Planet which just Maybe Society pushes us there in America Now we're forced to be constantly in Problem solving mode as men and women Are being told or pushed into or subtly Navigated towards emotional or Conversations with more resonance um you Put those two things together those are The exact polar opposite convers ations Like the techniques that work in one the Styles that work in one and the goals of Each of those is completely different as You've just explain the goal of the Emotional one I think is to feel heard To know you're not alone and to Experience in this you know mirroring Etc the goal of the punch list one is to Feel like you made forward progress and That one I guess being shorter would be Better and for the emotional one longer

Would be better is the duration of the Conversation matter no it really does Because if you think about it like I'm Sure you in your VC firm you guys have Practical conversations that go on for Weeks right should we make this Investment should we not like like That's not and there might be some Emotional aspects to it but it's Primarily practical conversation so the Duration doesn't matter quite as much as Just once we are aware of these three Conversations and we learn to look for The signals of what kind of conversation We're in we can almost automatically Overcome the challenges that it presents It's just a matter of awareness and the Why is because if you think about it you Mentioned this before communication is Homo sapiens superpower right yes it's The thing that has allowed our species To be so successful so as a result our Brains have evolved to be really really Good at Communication if it's given the right Inputs so what happens is that when when You hear there's three kinds of Conversations hear some ways to try and Recognize which conversation you're in Your brain will actually make that into A habit very very quickly Back to the Power of Habit back to the Power of Habit when you get into a Communic when you get into a

Conversation step one this is a social Conversation we're chewing the fat Everybody's looking to explore ideas get To know each other are we having an Emotional conversation hey I need to Give you empathy I need to understand What you're feeling or are we doing the Punch list are we doing a practical Conversation here and then you can come Into it with a different expectation and Technique and here's my favorite example So you're sitting in a meeting right and You're waiting for the meeting to start And the guy next you just turn to him And you're like hey how was your weekend And they say something like oh I went to Go see my kids graduation it was great Right now the most the Practical mindset You could be like oh congratulations Okay let's get down to the agenda but The the super Communicator is gonna say Oh man that sounds amazing what did it Feel like to watch your kid walk across That stage like was that was that Awesome and he's G your friend is going To answer for 15 seconds and then you Can be like oh man that sounds really Cool thank you for sharing that okay Let's get down to the agenda right when Somebody signals to you what kind of Mindset they're in and they might do it Subtly just by saying like I went to my Kids graduation it was great then if we Match them if we ask a question

Particularly a deep question how did you Feel about that what we're doing is We're giving them an opportunity to Align with us and for us to entrain with Them and it doesn't have to be super Timec consuming it doesn't have to be Super intimate it we don't have to be Weeping on each other's shoulders but When we do that we both feel connected To each other and that's going to make That practical conversation a lot easier To have yeah uh what role you know this Is like so great to have you on here Because I get to ask my own personal Questions here what role do Anecdotes Storytelling I mean I understand Metaphors analogies have a certain Importance in communication it's pretty Obvious what they are they help you Understand something faster or in a Deeper way but I notice um and I noticed In my life when I for some reason maybe It's the Irish and the Greek in me Storytellers both I would I and I I grew Up listening to anecdotes right I'd sit Around the table my Irish uncles aunts Grandparents cousins everybody be Telling stories the Greeks do this Particularly well as well uh just over Different Beverages and livations what Role did like telling anecdotes and Sharing these like stories have and then Self-deprecation same question what are

The roles of and self being Self-deprecating because I've been Self-deprecating for a long time I Thought it was a funny comedic device And also it was something I learned on The Stoops of Brooklyn because we used To break each other's chops and so if I Could tell you I was a fat Greek bastard Before you could tell me I was a fat Greek bastard or you know as a drunk Irish you know whatever I could cut you Off with the Pass you know and during our insult Battles uh in my youth but maybe we Touch on those too yeah absolutely so It's a great question so so anecdotes I Think anecdotes are important for two Reasons number one is if you think about What I was saying before so every Conversation is made every discussion is Made up of different kinds of Conversations you might start emotional Go to practical go to social go back to Emotional the great thing about a story A story is like a little package of all Those different kinds of conversations Right I'm gonna tell you I'm gonna tell You I'm gonna set up something and then I'm going to tell you like man I got to The party and I was feeling really Really down but then Jim came up and he Handed me this and I didn't know what Was in it and and then later on that Night like I found myself in bed with

Suie right when I'm telling you that Story what I'm actually doing is I'm Helping you through all these different Kinds of conversations I'm telling you About my emotional state I'm telling About you some practical stuff there's Probably a lesson that I'm expecting or That you'll carry away from this which Just might be like don't drink stuff That people hand to you there's a social Element because we're talking about Other people so a story is a perfect Little way of having these three little Conversations in a very clear manner but In addition what we know is that if you Ask people tell me about a conversation You had a week ago yeah and you ask them What did people say they will almost Never be able to remember what anyone Said they will remember the topics that Were discussed kind of they'll remember Who was in it and they'll remember kind Of how some people were positioned in it But they won't remember anything Specific but if you ask them tell me how You felt during that conversation They'll be able to tell you the Emotional Journey they were on we Remember fting we remember how other PE We remember how other people make us Feel we don't remember what they say Quite as well this is something yeah Good keep going well a story gets around That right a story is a way of taking an

Idea and embedding it in some emotion so That you Remember that story and therefore you Remember the idea ah see it's Fascinating see this is why I think Storytelling and anecdotes are so much Fun calling all seed in series a Startups be sure to check out HubSpot For start startups and HubSpot Ventures For their million dooll pitch Competition wait what a million dollar Yes that's right applications are Officially open for a limited time apply To be one of six Founders flown out to Hubspot's Flagship inbound conference Taking place in Boston this September When you get there you're going to get a Chance to pitch on stage in front of 1,000 folks and a panel of VCS and execs Not only will you get invaluable Feedback to help your business grow but You also will be considered for an Investment of up to $1 million again you Heard that right two commas $1 million Submissions are open until midnight Eastern time May 17th 2024 so let's get Those applications in folks this is a Huge opportunity to showcase your Startups unicorn potential so get your Submission in and don't miss your shot Here's the call to action super simple Get ready to enter HubSpot for startups And HubSpot Ventures million dooll pitch Competition apply now at hubspot.com

Million pitch hubspot.com slm million Pitch all one word no spaces no dashes The link will be in the show notes and Good luck I hope you win a million dooll Investment at the million dooll pitch Competition what's the most embarrassing Thing that ever had to you to me yeah I'm genuinely asking you this story I I Did by the way when when you told the Story about how much you sucked as a Manager I think you sell 10 times as Many books right there because you're Being honest like you wrote this book Because you're struggling with how you Speak to your wife and emotional convers I think you just sell 10 times as many Books when I just said that and recapped It because you know what because it's Authentic right it's authentic and an HBS guy who sold 12 million copies of a Book has got a problem I mean many many Problems my friend I know but to for Somebody who's a great writer to be a Communicator is like the best you know Way to present the book um so I'll tell You I'll tell you um I'll tell you when I was most embarrassed and then I want To ask you the same question question oh No so there was a d so I went to like This this thing with my kids I was Taking them to like a game and I had Been there was another dad there I Really liked this Dad we would talk on The sidelines as the game was going on

And I was like Jim you know this is like I love looking forward I always talked To Jim I looked forward to look talking To Jim every time I saw him be hey Jim What's up and five games in he was like By the way I just need to let you know My name is Steve I am such a dick such an Idiot wow W yeah that is yeah that was I Was I was somewhat red-faced at that Moment how about you what's the most Embarrassing thing you can you can Remember I it's it's it's not just the Most embarrassing it's the most painful Yeah yeah it's it was physically the Most painful I think I've ever been in And the most embarrassing so I uh I sold My second company web blogs Inc which Was the producers ofing Gadget you Probably remember that blog was the Number one blog in the world for a while Auto blog so I'm like in my early 30s This 20 years ago and I sell the company We sold the company for $30 million I I I went from being broke to being rich Overnight and uh it was just this Incredible success story 18 months from Start to finish Mark Cuban's the Investor and it's incredible so I get The wires and everything my partner and I champagne boom we're rich My friend uh is going to Sundance uh Because his movie is premiering my Friend David saaks is premiering the

Film Thank You for Smoking and my other friend just make This a complete crazy name drop Elon Musk is a producer of that film and he Has a cameo in it and his plane at the Time the Falcon uh has a cameo and so David's also got a plane everybody's Flying out from LA to Sunday I have to go to a closing dinner with All the bloggers who work there and and Give everybody their bonus Checks but I really wanted to fly on the Private jet that would have been great Right to fly to Sundance on a private Jet but I said you know what guys I'm Going to meet you there so my wife my Friends their wives everybody's flying Out to go to sunet I'm going to meet Them there on Southwest I go buy the Southwest ticket there's no flights left Because it's Sundance from LA right Right I'm like God damn it there's one Flight f 5:05 a.m. I'm like I didn't Know they had flights before 6: a.m. 5: A.m. you might as well stay out I mean So I got to get there at 4:05 for a 505 I am dead tired I get on the flight I Got a middle Seat um I go I'm exhausted my friends Are already there private jet blah blah Blah put my bag up I sit down in my Middle seat and I feel a weird sensation Like a crunching sound Then I feel

Wetness and then I feel Heat and then I jump up and I look down And there is a giant Starbucks cup and Black coffee steaming in my seat oh my God and the woman in the window seat Looks at me and goes oh were you sitting There and I said where your coffee was In my seat and then I feel my ass is on [ __ ] Fire I but the plane is taxiing like now At this point and like the woman's Trying to or the plane's about to taxi Everybody's seated I run to the Bathroom I drop my draws I see out of The corner of my eye my pasty White Irish ass is Red and I realized I may have to go to The hospital so I start pouring this is Hot coffee ass is the name of this story I start you know how you can get like a Little bit of water out of that yeah Yeah I start put that on my ass little Scoops of water and they're banging on The door sir we have to take off you Have to come out of the bathroom I'm Like my ass is on fire I can't get out Of this Bathroom so I start taking my pants off I take my underwear off I I cool my ass Down now there's like three or four People around the back of the airb do You need an ambulance do you need Whatever because now the flight Attendants know what's happened I mean

Starbucks coffee is hot yeah it's very Hot especially when you don't have milk In this was black coffee this when was Drink so I take my underwear off I put My khakis back on my khakis are Destroyed my ass is steing I take but my My ass is still burning so I take some Of the seaf Fall napkins and I wet them And I paste them to my butt so I have Coolness on my butt because I know I got To get the temperature down I put that Up I got the under my white tidy whes Are black but I can't put them on so I Get out of the thing and I'm holding it And I look the whole plane is looking Looking at you Got the white I walk back to seat the Woman has her magazine in her book Whatever like this she does not want to Make eye contact with me for this really Did she ever did she apologize she says Nothing for the rest of the flight Nothing felt bad for her and I I I said To her don't worry like it's like only First degree burns it's not like my ass Isn't blistering whatever I get there to Sundance I I'm freezing my ass off Literally as you know it's cold I'm Getting in my SUV and uh my wife wants Me to pick her up uh get back to the House whatever get changed so I got this Underwear so I just tuck it into the Side of the console you know between the Seat I go pick everybody up I got

Everybody in the car now David sacks Everybody uh and like my wife pulls the Underwear out in front of every what's This oh my God and I said I had an Accident on the plane Technically true I did have an accident Technically technically true technically True literally the most embarrassing Twice twice embarrassed yeah yeah it's Good times though right it's like you Know it's a great memory yeah was I also Thought there's something humbling about This like you finally The Kid From Brooklyn became a millionaire always Feared being poor and now I'm a Millionaire finally I got my Dream and and I still got to take this 5:00 a.m. flight yeah and I still burnt The out of my ass and you know what Doesn't matter how much money you have You're going to sit on a h you're going To get hot coffee has sometime it's Gonna happen I life has a very does a Very good job of um of forcing us to Recognize our limitations and keeping us Humble if we're not so you had asked About self-depreciation so I think yeah Yeah depreciation yeah yeah so I think One of the things that the re I think One of the reasons why that's so Successful is because because it's very Authentic right so one of the things That we know is that people's brains are Very good at detecting inauthenticity

Like we've always we've all been at that Party and someone asks us you know where Uh where'd you go on vacation and we Recognize like three seconds in they Don't care where we went on vacation They just want to tell us about where They went on vacation right tell us About the yacht they they rented yeah so Our brains have evolved to be very good At detecting this and I think one of the Things that happens with Self-depreciating stories is that is That we tend it's a it's a way for us to Be authentic right without without Without having to um without having to Fake it oftentimes like if the story is True and you genuinely kind of look like You know the the butt of the the joke Right if you have a yeah exactly then Then I think what it does is it it Conveys that authenticity and it makes Other people trust that everything we're Going to say might might be authentic oh Because we've been willing to share Something Vulnerable when people have an Ask they Want something from the other person This is a certain Dynamic of Conversation you want the job you want The promotion you want the investment From the venture capitalist you want the Customer to sign on the dot line you Want to get your book signed you want to Get your book approved and you want to

Get a publisher there's a there's an Inbalance there there's an asker and There's the person who can give Uh it's not necessarily negotiation That's a separate category but in those Conversations are there best practices There that you learned about how to Frame them and how they should go down For the goal of getting what you want The investment the book deal etc yeah so Let's talk about like if you're applying For a job or you're you're talking to a Venture capitalist group and I'm curious If you would think that this is good Advice as a VC yourself so often times We go in thinking our job is to impress This person right my job is to impress Them that I'm a great hire or my job is To impress them that I'm a great Investment but again a conversation is Successful if we understand each other At the first outset and so if I go in And I say like here's why you should Hire me I'm fantastic and I never ask You a question and I never get a sense Of like what you're actually looking for How you're thinking about this problem Then then I'm not trying to understand You I'm just trying to force you to Understand me and so I think one of the Best things you can do during job Interviews for instance is to go in and Say you know they they ask you Interviews in the question to say like

Look do you mind if I ask you a question Like I I'm wondering like what do you Think makes someone successful or not Successful in this position like what Beyond what you've written down what is It that you've seen that what have you What are you looking for that you've Seen in the past helps someone succeed In this role right at that point script Exactly at that point it becomes a Conversation and I think that I you can Tell me I'm assuming when during pitches That the folks you end up investing in They probably ask you questions right They're trying to understand how you see The world not so much you would think That's interesting yeah but you you have To understand you're dealing with two of The uh yeah and you you do understand This having uh gone to HBS which Produces a lot of venture capitalists And a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of Management Consultants sadly also known As a wasted life Um have you watched what's happening to Management Consultants since Chad gbt Came out no I haven't but it's probably Not like if you want gibberish we got You covered type anything into chat GPT And we will put words on a page that Seemingly are important that nobody will Read anyway it's like my my premise is Chat GPT is basically like a McKenzie Consultant they're buying people out

They're like please let us buy you out Because people are not hiring them Because if you want a bunch of words and Gibberish uh to give you some strategy It actually turns out Chat the any of these are really good at That but you're just deal but tell me Yeah so you're dealing with these two Groups that are both like they're very So on the Venture Capital side um you Have like a range of people who are some Of them are very thoughtful and ask a Lot of questions who are in the Michael Moritz from Sequoia Journal previous Journalist and myself would be like not I would never compare myself to him as An investor but I both of us are Journalists oh Malik comes from that School where you're you're good at Asking questions and reading people and Understanding the next question to ask You know and seeing if the person's Thoughtful on the other side and then You might have somewh just completely Arrogant Lunatics um who just because they're the Ones writing that they're kind of like Studio heads or something giving a green Light to a picture right so they're just High on their own Supply lunatics and Who knows why they invest you know There's a whole bunch of reasons You know whatever um and then on the Other side you have entrepreneurs who

Have so much enthusiasm and they're so Effervescent they're so maniacal you can Describe it positively or negatively um About their idea that they just cannot Stop talking about it they cannot stop Filling the air in every moment with Everything they're so contained about Right and if they did ask more questions I think they would do better but since I Know that this is the group you're Dealing with which are people who if They're going to be successful are Difficult people contener people but Effective people so there was a famous Moment where uh the founder of seoa Capital drew a a four quadrant diagram Agreeableness Disagreeable ineffective effective Competent incompetent whatever and they Just said to the younger uh VCS at seoa Where do you think we make our money in Those four quadrants agreeable people Disagreeable people competent people Incompetent people which one would you Say is the big outliers in the power law Well I I'm guessing that what the VC's The younger VC said is they said Agreeable competent and it's actually Disagreeable content 100% correct it Turns out like you know Steve Jobs yeah Bill Gates like Zuckerberg these people Are not easy to get along with at times And You Know Travis from Uber you know He's got his own vision of how this is

Going to go but highly competent you you Make money on competent agreeable people Too just not probably not going to be The outliers so when confronted with a Disagreeable person like a Founder who Might say like why should I have you on The cap table or that's a stupid Question like I've had a Founder say That's a stupid Question think about the level of boot Spa that takes totally totally but it's Actually what's interesting about that Is that that doesn't mean it's a bad Question so like someone who said or or Something to say right cuz cuz I think What I'm hearing you say and tell me if I'm getting this wrong yeah is when when Someone is a disagreeable person what They're also doing is they're being very Authentic to themselves right so they Walk into that room and they're not Asking you a question just because they Want to impress you that they're the Kind of person who ask questions rather They're telling you like if you ask me a Dumb question I'm going to let you know It's a dumb question yeah and if and if I ask you something like why do you Belong on this C table it's I'm actually Asking you why you belong on this cap Table I'm asking you the most authentic Thing that I can that I'm curious about At this moment yeah so I don't so for me I love it I I think it's great I I love

People it's the Brooklyn and me who just Get right to the point and who ask the Hardest question because life is Short everybody has options so let's Just get to it let's see if this is Going to work or not I I I like to go Fast but um I do think asking a VC a Cple questions is a great idea um and I Always tell them like go ask other Founders what they think of the VC tell Me about a difficult conversation you've Had with them like we call them dark References or backdoor references There's a bunch of different terms for It but don't tell the VC you're doing it Just go look at people they've invested In and say hey how's Jason catus as an Investor can I ask you another question So one of the other things that super Communicators do in addition asking Questions that's really important is They prove that they're listening like And there's actually a technique for This known as looping for understanding In uh which is that you ask a question Preferably a deep question you repeat What the person said in your own words To prove to them that you're you're Processing and then you ask them if you Got it right so funny you say This I literally have in our training Manual for new Associates in The Firm Researchers make sure you ask people um Can I repeat your vision this is in a

20-minute meeting the last thing they Have to say to the founders may I repeat Back to you your vision for startup name So I make sure I understand it completely and I wrote That language yeah and I make sure Everybody says it every meeting because Then that person when they leave we ask Them to raid our firm with The NPS score You Know How likely are you to recommend Launch to another founder we get Incredibly high scores Because when I started getting reviews Back from Founders the number one Criticism was I Jason didn't understand My vision yeah and I was like am I Arrogant am yes okay sure uh am I not Listening no listening well why do People feel that way and then what I Realized we say no to 199 out of 200 Meetings if somebody says no it's very Easy for the person who to frame it as Well they didn't understand if they Understood my Brilliance exact they Would have greenlighted my movie they Didn't hear what I was telling them Telling wer really listening yeah so I Created a device to cut them off in the Past yeah I think it's really really Smart and and what we know is that again Hardwired by Evolution into our brain is That if I believe you are listening to Me I'm more likely to listen to you yeah So my question to you is when when

You're evaluating a potential Investment how much do you care about Whether that that Entrepreneur will listen to you like how Much of that is a is a factor in in how You make decisions that's interesting Um I think the you you have to Understand um if you want to be great at Venture Capital that Your returns which is how you'll be Judged ultimately um are completely Dependent on you hitting a company in The power law a great outlier I was Lucky enough to be the third or fourth Investor at Uber made my career but then I did it with Robin Hood and a couple of Other companies Comm other great Companies and it turns out missing a Company Omission is the is the big sin And so and the great Founders do not Need help from their venture capitalist This is the big secret that's Interesting the whole Venture Capital Industry is predicated on This patina of we're here to help you And you know it's going to be like this Mentorship and this you were going to be There by your side and it turns out a Lot of times the founders just run off With it and you're lucky along to be on The rocket ship like you literally got On the rocket ship what is the passenger On the rocket ship what is their impact Nothing they lit the candle the candle

Went to the moon that's it it got to Escape velocity so so people kind of Over index or maybe overthink how much Impact a VC themselves can have so I do Like somebody who I can have a a vibrant Discussion with but they don't I don't Like somebody who changes their Vision Based on a question I ask so sometimes I'll ask people a question so should This be a consumer product or should you Be selling to Enterprises and they're like well I just Presented a consumer product to you but Do you think it should be Enterprise um because we could make it Enterprise I've literally had people Change their business model in the room And I'm like Uh I was asking you to get your opinion On why it's not Enterprise but I don't Want you to switch it I I actually asked That question in good faith like I don't Know the answer like how did you come to Consumer versus Enterprise right so I Guess I like somebody who can battle it Out and debate stuff I don't care if It's quietly over SMS over email you Know doing a Walkin talk or on the phone Or Screaming I don't care I care about The outcome but I don't like somebody Who is willy-nilly and will flip their Vision based on a question I ask well And I think that's exactly that gets at The heart of like why conversations work

Right because if a conversation is one Way then it's not a conversation it's And and in one way doesn't mean just That I'm monologuing and you're Listening it can also mean you're not Bringing anything to the conversation I'm asking you a question and you're Assuming that I've already made up my Mind you're not actually listening to What I'm asking you and you're listening By responding and say Let Me Tell why We're going consumer rather than Enterprise because Enterprise is the Stupidest thing on the face of the Planet right yeah and and that is that Authenticity is that at the end of the Day there's a study that was done by Harvard um called the Harvard study of Adult development I'm sure you've heard Of it it's like one of the largest and Longest studies they yeah they followed People around for 80 years now thousands Of people trying to figure out what Makes you happy and healthy and Successful however you define success at Age 65 what they found is that the only Thing that basically predicts that is Having a handful of close relationships At age yeah and that the way we create Those close relationships is not simply By calling people up and following their Lead it's by Leading together right that If you say something authentic I'm gonna Say something authentic too if you say

Something revealing I'm G to reveal Something about myself and that doesn't Mean I'm gonna agree with you it doesn't Mean that we're like the same person but It does mean that we're going to feel Connected right and that's and the People you love and the people I love Are people we don't agree with all the Time yeah they are but they are people Who know how to connect with us despite The fact that we disagree about things I Think that study is so profound by the Way the one you're bringing up um yeah Because at the end of the day the Conclusion I've come to and I I lost a Couple of friends over the last couple Years um Tony Shay uh you know from Delivering happiness and zos died Tragically um and Dave Goldberg Goldie Um died as well you know there two guys I play poker with all the time and I Realized wow you know I have a Collection of memories also Conversations with those two gentlemen And at the end of our Lives what do we Actually have we have a collection of Memories yeah with certain people and And to your point earlier in our Conversation and how those conversations And moments made us feel we may not Remember the entirety of those but we Remember how they made us feel and this Is why when I was a young buck editor I Made people feel terrible I was like a

Hardcore person and I then started to Think about how I it's making people Feel and I Incorporated a lot more Levity while still delivering hey we Have a standard to hit we're in a Competitive space you got to you got to Work harder um and or you this product Is not acceptable as Delivered um where I used to just kick People out of a meeting like my God this Is garbage get the [ __ ] out of the Meeting you know ler would kick people Out of an editorial meeting come back When you have something to contribute You know uh now I would just say hey This this is not the standard we're Going for um please uh you know give it Another shot and uh we're better than This aren't we because this we're not Going to do well totally if we produce This so I don't know if you need some Help with this or you can run it by but Let's give it another shot and and try To level this up well and Goldie I think Is a really good example of a super Communicator because when I was cover Ing so I met him when I was covering the Music industry for the LA times before I Went to launch.com and yeah exactly Exactly launch. Co by the way oh nice Because I always love launch and I Always love that name which I got from Gold so we would we would go to to Breakfast and lunch pretty regularly and

I I honestly don't remember anything we Talked about but I remember how humble He was how genuinely he cared about like My success other people's success how Honest he was and I remember walking Away from those conversations feeling Like this is one of the greatest guys Like I just and feeling good myself Right like feeling feeling like I was Smart because and that's the thing he Super communicators are not the most Charismatic people they're not the Biggest extroverts they can they can be Charismatic and extroverts but they can Be cragly introverts yeah super Communicators succeed because they show You that they want to connect with you Yeah and that that feels special yeah Yeah and he and right he wanted to Connect if he was having a conversation With you he was genuinely present in That conversation he wanted to connect With you he did not want to impress you That he was the I actually didn't even Find out who his wife was until like I Had known him for three months yeah and I was and I was like how do you how do You afford this life of yours he's like Well you know my wife Works she got she got on the right Rocket ship as well yeah exactly the Actual rocket ship quote is from Cheryl Um oh is it really yeah she said if you Get a seat in a rocket ship in Silicon

Valley take it yeah just very rare that The Rockets you know take off and you Get get to be on one but yeah Goldie you Know in our poker group you know with me And chamath and other folks you know we Were all these crazy narcissistic Lunatic you know trying to impress Everybody and and hit certain goals and He was just the most thoughtful guy who Would talk to you about how you were Doing and Mentor you how you doing in Your life and uh they got a word for That uh mench and he was a super mench It turns out super Communicator super Mench they're probably adjacent Basically the same thing yeah be the Same thing listen I I've kept you for Over an hour this has been amazing Everybody go byy the book Charles you Know we should have just we should chew The fat and have you on the pot again Like every year would that we should Just talk shop because you got a lot of Great insights and I think we're both Gen xers yes yes come down to S sometime We we'll go surfing absolutely for sure You know I don't surf I ski and I I've Gotten more into skiing but you surf out Down there with the shark you got so I Didn't I didn't start surfing until like 10 years ago when I was 40 H it it is a Way easier than people think it is not Easy but like it's more approachable It's also so fun I it is I am not a

Graceful person I'm not an athletic Person I feel like I am living poetry on A surfboard I I don't look that way but I feel it that is uh what you're Experiencing is flow right where the Whole world disappears when you get up On that board and you are connecting With that wave there is nothing else in Your mind what I get from downhill Skiing I got a place in Tahoe after Tony I never shared this but since we're Having this like super communication Moment when Tony Shay died I was like I Was talking to a friend they said what Do you do for fun you know I was I was Really depressed if I'm being honest About his death um I was like we're Talking about happiness and how much Happiness he brought to people and so I Said uh you know like I work I invest And you know I take my girls over here You know and they're like oh that's the Things you do for other people Jal I'm Like okay I play poker with my friends Like okay yeah that's something what Else uh I was like I couldn't come up With anything I did for myself you know When you become a dad and you're got 400 Investments and you got to do three Podcast a week just your life as you Become an adult gets filled up and You're not doing anything for yourself Essentially you're just a mule uh this Is what happens to men specifically of a

Certain age I think you become a mule And I think moms are have a different Type of experience they have and yeah They also can become mules and so uh I Said you know I like skiing how often do You ski I was like I go like three or Four days every other year or something And then I did two years two seasons Back toback 40 and 39 days oh my gosh Yeah like did more skiing in two years Incredible lifechanging did it yeah did It feel like like were you happier on The days you weren't skiing like what Did what did that do for And my brain chemistry went 5x in terms Of my happiness when I wasn't and when I Don't ski for an extended period of time I get sad I'm sad in the summer because Of the skiing so I got to pick up Surfing in the summer I think surfing You got to come do it man down flow Experience because I I don't and I I had It the summer last summer I went um have You ever done an efoil these UHS are They cool yeah I've seen them so I did The E4 I had an instructor I was on a Lake which makes it super easy And you climb on the board and then when You get your balance first you ride the Board just like laying on it and you Have a remote control and you just hit The button and and then you lean back a Little bit and the foil that's under the Water with the blade when it angles up

It lifts the board up out of the water So now you're the board comes off the Water and you're just on the Foil and it's the closest thing to Flying I've experienced but is very Analogous to skiing and I've skied very Fast the last couple years like over 50 M an hour On diamonds with really really great Skis and just that feeling Of you have to start to have this flow Experience and then you're popped up on The board and then you lean back and the Board pops out of the water and you lean Forward and it goes down you lean a Little left right it is the most magical Experience when you figure and I think It's what happens to people when they Catch a wave yeah no it's exactly the Same thing it's because it's so hard and It's also like you're so in touch with Nature right you have to pay attention To the ocean is somebody who like spends Most of his time on a screen yeah like When you are close to something Natural like in a kind of intimate way Like you have to pay attention to it yes Then it actually feels very Redemptive I Think it's the same thing falling going Down the mountain right yes it's it's Not just the speed it's the snow it's The sound it's the quiet around you it's The gravity of it right like I think It's and there's something also about

Speed and being in the moment where it Requires 100% un focused because I've Had moments where I'm drifting off and I Was like oh just listen to a podcast While I'm skiing nope I can listen to Music while I'm skiing canot listen to a Podcast or an audio because you're gonna Bite it and you're gonna Destro yourself And biting it at 50 miles an hour in a Diamond no buen not good not good Especially not a 53 you something's not Going to go well season over and man I Had so many profound moments um and it's Great for writing too I suspect when you Get off at surfing a writing session Must be great right yeah yeah no it's Definitely it's definitely like I love It anyways come down come down we what's Your favorite book on writing by the way I'll end on that because I know writers Like books on writing uh my favorite Book on writing is probably actually This book by Jim Stewart James Stewart The who's at the the he's a columnist of The New York Times now but he also used To write for the new New Yorker and Still kind of does it's called follow The story if anyone wants to learn how To write Jim Stewart's follow the story Is a great great book but actually I Know this oh it's a great book it's a Great book but actually right now like a Non-writing book that I think teaches You a lot about writing is a visit from

The Goon Squad by Jenny Ean ah what What's the premise um so it's it's about It's it's a series of vignettes about These interconnected characters in the Music industry it won the pure prize a Couple years ago it's a great book just So much fun to read looking at it right Now oh so it's non-fiction it's Fiction It's Fiction it's fiction yeah yeah Visit from the G Squad is fiction and The thing is that like when you read Really good writers one of the things That they're doing is they're teaching You how to write 100% right yeah this is Why I you know I always loved um Michael Kryon I don't know if You' read Michael Kryon oh my God I love Michael kryon Great it's the easiest reading but it Also there's something about the writing You and I do about business about you Know non-fiction writing he was a Non-fiction writer putting a layer of Fiction on it where he's like hey you Want to understand DNA let's talk about Jurassic Park oh you want to understand Aviation airframe most people haven't Read that but he he really like in the Story never stops it just moves so fast He's respecting you as a reader he's Taking care of you right he's like I Want to teach you something but I Promise I'm not gonna make it spinach I'm gonna like I'm gonna reward you for Learning it's great my two favorite on

On writing Stephen King's on writing Have you read no I haven't read it but People have recommended it to me I Should go read it just listen to it or Or read it it's a great like if you're Just going for a walk to listen to he Really talks about like writing hjo and Other moments and it's Auto it's his Autobiography but it's about writing and His love of writing and like doing Cocaine while writing Cujo nose bleeding Like so evocative like he's like and I Had two tissues up my nose because my Nose bleeding because I'm doing so much Cocaine while R and Kujo we like You' Seen the movie definely A cocain Driven Movie yeah dogs are like chasing you Everywhere we know Stephen we believe It's so great we believe you I'm gonna Go by that today and then Ann Lamont has A book Bird by Bird yeah which is a bit More of like a practical warm you up to Writing books so I always just tell People like and then if you just want to Get inspired um born standing up by I Love that book it's so beautiful it's so He is and like have you watched the There there's this documentary that just Came out I saw there's a Netflix Documentary out now yeah I think it's Apple I think it's Apple TV yeah the First episode is better than the second One because the first episode is about How when he was young and like the thing

That none of us realize is that Steve Martin was the biggest celebrity in the World like this is before we were born Right in the 70s he was he was like Bono He was like he was bigger than Robin Williams he was bigger than Everyone not Arenas like Dave Chappelle Not like the Staple Center he was Selling out giant Stadium he was selling Out football Arenas and people were Crazy about him there were contests All Over America to imitate Steve Martin so Just watching that and being like wow Like because we all have a relationship To Steve Martin but to see him before we Were born is actually really interesting And you know he wanted to do other Things too which is the thing I really Respect about him he got into banjo he Got into plays he got Writing noas which I think means a short Novel and collecting art right and like I know that yeah he's a huge art Collector I didn't know that yeah watch I think you like The I think that's just like for me on The biography tip those two are just so Transcendent because the craftsmanship They both have in their work the care Exactly and I I just tell people like You you have to really want it but you Also have to like want to learn the Techniques yeah you know shout out Malcolm glav we give him a hard time

About his Blue Apron ads but also like The 10,000 hours which like is you have To love the activity like like the thing Is if you're doing it for the money You're you're never going to be great at It like but if you're doing it because Like this is what you would do because You're just obsessed with it which is How I feel about writing honestly like I'm so jealous of you as a fulltime rer It's fun so Jealous I mean you must have this thing Where you're drowning an opportunity Because people must want you to write Screenplay play or do TV shows or do Journalism how do you say no to all the Inbound speaking you must get like crazy Speaking fees and everything how do you Say no a lot of it's always like a Balance right I talked to my wife about It a lot so during the pandemic I'm sure I'm sure you had a similar experience Like I was probably doing 30 speeches a Year before the pandemic and that's like 60 days away from home right yeah that's Two full months and and then the Pandemic came in it all shut down and my Life got so much better I would like the Level of stress went down by 20% Absolutely I said to my wife I had no Idea that traveling was bringing this Much stress into my life so it's Something we think about a lot like how Do you balance because it's not just the

Money it's also like the like you want If you're Republican intellectual you Like you want to you want your ideas out There you want to be talking about them Yeah but I mean also efficiency I how do You say because I I'm getting these like Your fees must be higher than mine but I Regularly get 50 75k one hour speech gigs and I'm like Whoa whoa whoa that's like year salary For everybody else totally how do I say No to that and I'm saying no to Them yeah I think you have to I think You have to like you have to you have to Say like at some point I'm making Decisions every time I've made a Decision just for money I've ended up Usually thinking like it wasn't a great Decision right and so and so I think Part of it is that you have to be able To to have a criteria Beyond those Dollars to say like does this bring me Into a town is it an audience that I'm Really interested in and I want to talk To does this bring me into a town where I have a friend who I haven't seen in a Long time Y is this right is this Something where I can feel good about I Got an invitation to go talk to this Um about I'm not I actually ended up Saying no because I'm not an expert on This but it was like Dei in a community That's very anti- Dei and I was like I'm Not a Dei expert I I can't I don't know

That I'm gonna add much but but things Like that that are mission driven are Very that's a fascinating discussion the Dei one yeah save that for when we do Another episode you and I are pretty Natural iners I I like fing do another One I think the audience is going to Want a part two of this I love it yeah Listen uh everybody just go buy both Books right now stop what you're doing Uh I mean books are like honestly books Are the best deal in town just like Podcasts you know and some authors can Do both Charles you're such a great Guest thanks for sharing so much putting Yourself out there and I I think I got To get down there Santa Cruz and get on A wave this summer anytime anytime we'll See you all next time on this we starts Bye-bye