I think as Americans we should be very Proud of the fact that technology Companies and the citizenry and by and Large our representatives are in Alignment that privacy does matter I Think we can take that win despite Sax's Tweet and the pile on that I experienced This weekend the fact is we are nowhere Near what is going on in the three Buckets you have dictatorships on one Side you have free countries on the Other and then there's a a little bit of Gray in the You got France clearly is going to be in That middle uh you have the monarchies In the Middle East they believe in some Amount of you know encryption some Places don't um you know and it's just Going to be a jurisdiction thing this Week in startups is brought to you by Vanta compliance and security shouldn't Be a deal breaker for startups to win New business vanta makes it easy for Companies to get a sock to report fast Twist listeners can get $1,000 off for a Limited time at V.com Twist open phone create business phone Numbers for you and your team that work Through an app on your smartphone or Desktop twist listeners can get an extra 20% off any plan for your first 6 months At open phone.com Twist and
Lemon. hire prev vetted remote Developers get 15% off your first four Weeks of developer time at Lemon. twist hey everybody welcome back To this week in startups I'm your host Jason calanis uh we're about to hit 2,000 episodes of this podcast in 14 Years and Alex I'm not tired I love Doing it and having you here to do the News of me twice a week three times a Week has been a a fresh air it's really Reinvigorated the show so uh here we go Any uh anything big this weekend Personally any any uh big story is Breaking that you're watching well the Biggest story that's breaking is uh my My next my next kids doing uh seven Eight days so Um yeah I'm I'm actually kind of glad we Had this one enormous story that's Consumed our attention because it's been Such a a beautiful um distraction for me To not be worrying about like do I know How to swaddle do I recall how to have An infant so um yes not that I'm saying I'm in favor of people being arrested But the pav durov story that we're going To start with has been electrifying also Everyone uh if you want to know what Else is on the show today we're talking About a massive new secondaries fund the Future of IBM and other tech companies In China but Jason clearly clearly the Biggest story from the last 24 hours
Last 36 hours has been the arrest of pav Durov best known I think in the West for His helping found uh telegram a mostly Encrypted chat application got arrested In France so first of all when did you First uh catch the story in your eyes so I mean over the week and you know this Has been a big uh breaking story because It's dramatic flying into France on a Private jet getting picked up For um a lack of moderation which to me Is like a very nebulous term I just Assume that the French language and English you know there might be Something mixed up because and you know In a breaking news situation like this I Always like to be Thoughtful uh be demure be thoughtful Not like these other girls um uh you Know who fly off the handle and start You know sharing things uh but in all Seriousness like in a breaking news Context you and I know uh there's going To be a lot of cards that are going to Turn over and in fact the actual charges Came out moments ago so we're going to Talk about that but this triggers a lot Of uh side discussion so I think today You know we should really open up the Aperture of this discussion because There's international relations here There's a Russia Ang because he's Russian um and he started his career uh You know in Russia and there's a Putin
Connection there's a freedom of speech Uh issue here um and then there's this Peculiar nature of the French um he's And also the Pav's got a couple of Passports he's a pretty Larger than Life Figure right now um and there's a big Discussion of which is more important The sovereignty of the Individual or the effect iess of our uh Law enforcement because if you give People the ability to talk privately at Scale across the world not just talking To people in the you know around your Kitchen table or whispering and Somebody's here we're talking about a Global Network then there's a really Important conversation around um you Know some of the most nefarious illegal Activities and and how those impact Society and then does a Society want to Enable at scale endtoend encryption that Cannot be cracked or do they want to Give a back door to law enforcement so You could do things like I don't know Stop a terrorist attack or human Trafficking or fenal so you know it's a Lot of feelings here I think and and um It's a it's it's perhaps this will Become like one of the M I think this Will be the story of the rest of the Year if I'm being honest pending the US Election dropping some sort of you know News bomb on the technology industry I Think that's probably right so to give
People a little bit of context before The charges dropped and we're going to Get to those in just one second um Jean Miguel I'm going to ruin the frencher Ofbody I'm sorry but berod uh who is the General Secretary of the office of Miners or off men in France said that p Durov uh this is actually from his LinkedIn and I'm using a machine Translation everybody so if it's Slightly off uh blame Google PA durov The founder and CEO of the messaging up Telegram was arrested Saturday at the Heart of this issue is the lack of Moderation Jason's point and cooperation Of the platform particularly in the Fight against pedophilia so let's go to The charges Jason and these just came Out uh before we went live and we have Them in both French and English um I'm Just going to quickly run through these Uh just interrupting me whenever you Want to jump in okay yes sir the Judicial investigation was opened Against person unnamed on charges of Complicity web mastering and online Platform in order to enable an illegal Transaction refusal to communicate this Is a relatively long one complicity in The possessing of pornographic images of Minors complicity in distributing Offering or making available Pornographic images of minors complicity In acquiring transporting possessing
Offering selling narcotic substances Back to the fentanyl Point uh and then Fraud criminal Association laundering of Proceeds providing cryptology Services Aiming to ensure confidentiality without Certified declaration and a whole bunch Of other stuff which Jason I think if we Boil this down it is essentially what You said here's a service that offers Encryption and people use it for stuff And it seems that the company's level of Cooperation with French authorities was Less than was hoped for or expected and So pavle got snared in this and was then Arrested when he landed in France Because I don't think they're saying pav Is doing each of those individual things But his platform was being used Aro he Is um Complicit so what we're talking about Now is the French rules around encrypted Services and the owner of those services So other services like signal I think WhatsApp has end to end encryption There's other IM message has end to end Encryption so there is one issue of Endtoend encryption and then there's Another issue of giving Information at the request when there's A legal Issue so he clearly is not cooperating With them everybody knows telegram very Good for groups I keep getting added to All kinds of crypto Ico spam groups oh
My gosh those are the worst the worst um Where and my favorite part about them in The peak was they were called pump pump Pump and then people would get in there And they would coordinate pumping a coin With absolutely no awareness that the Person running the group had probably Already bought their coins a week ago And then was clearing them out as you Pump pumped them and they were telling You hold hold hold while they sold sold Sold so my question then becomes um how Is this different than other encrypted Services let's take IM message and Tim Cook when Tim Cook or apple executives Are in France right now and people are Using IMessage I'm assuming with some level of Encryption um or other services are they Also going to get picked up next so that That's sort of the next shoe to drop um And why are the French going so yeah Know that that's my first question why Are the French going after him well he Is a French citizen so to understand Pavle and how he built telegram you Should probably go back a little bit to His days in Russia he's a co-founder of V contact which is probably the best Known Uh Russian originated Social Network I want to say and he ran into Quite a lot of trouble with the Kremlin There were takedown requests eventually He sold his stake was kind of forced out
Of the company there was a little bit of Nuance there about how he got forced out We don't have time to go into that but Essentially back in Russia in 2018 there Was a law called the yarava law and it Meant that you had to store Voice and Text Communications for a certain period Of time and also critically store Encryption keys with the Russian FSB Which is their security service he said No and then um had to leave and then Left the country I think at that point He became a citizen of St kits and then He's become a citizen of France and also The UAE now in the French case Jason Just because I hated to do a lot of Research this is interesting um did you Know that you can get a French passport If you are a quote Emeritus Foreigner um This is a way in which some uh very Powerful and influential people can get French citizenship without having um a French uh background I.E in a territory Or in the nation itself or parents Thereof so essentially he got a really Special passport to France so recently As of 20 21 he was in good keeping in France right and so that's that's what I Kind of struggle with is what changed in The last three years um that led to what Seems from what I understand now to be a Relatively quick reversal of his favor And Fortunes in his adopted well one of His adopted home countries I'm a little
Perplexed by that yeah that was Confusing to me because it's pretty well Established that in France um you have To give access you have to maintain the Keys the encryption keys as opposed to Say the individuals having the Encryption Keys you have to hand over The keys to authorities and give them a Back door essentially if they requested But if you're running a service where You don't keep the keys as you just Explained in the Russian example then You can't do that so I guess I don't Have the keys if I'm understanding Technically what's going on here and the Request because we're reading into this In a breaking news atmosphere then he Doesn't have he's saying I don't have The keys they're saying you're supposed To have the keys you're supposed to Maintain the keys but that's that's not How it works with this end to-end encryp Encryption and you're suppos that my Understanding was they allowed end To-end encryption um so I guess this is Perhaps the beginning of the end of end To end encryption I hope not but it's Just worth like remembering how long We've been having this conversation now This was called the crypto Wars before The invention of cryptocurrency which Has taken the word crypto and kind of Taking it onto its own we could call it The encryption Wars but it's it's
Absolutely a long-term push and pull Between you know the public wanting to Have secure Communications both for Payments and also for chat and the Government wanting to be able to stick Its nose into everything and just you Know rewinding the clock back to Snowden I think we all learned just how Voracious even countries with relatively Strong First Amendment style protections Can be when it comes to collecting all This information now in the case Of uh the European Union I was surprised To see a report from the eff from March Of this year there was a quote Milestone Judgment um in which the European Court Of Human Rights ruled that weakening Encryption can lead to the general Indiscriminate surveillance of the Communications of all users and violates The human right to privacy so to me There seems to be precedent even inside The EU itself that encryption should be Allowed which throws further confusion Onto what's going on with pav and Telegram and France listen a strong sales team can Make all the difference for a B2B Startup but if you're going to hire Sharks you need to let them hunt and you Can't slow them down with compliance Hurdles like sock 2 what is sock 2 well Any company that stores customer data in The cloud needs to be sock to compliant
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Russia was provoked I think that's Nonsensical if you're provoked that Doesn't give you the right to murder Your neighbors and I I Believe In The Free sovereignty of countries so long Way of saying I keep probably more up to Date to it than the average person but I've never been to Ukraine I've never Been to Russia I am not a student of the Entire history there so you know some Humility as well um well we can buy you A copy copy of cruser Kings 3 and you Can rewrite history as much as you want Um video game jokes aside uh telegram is A very popular channel for uh Russian Communication and also just for Information getting out of uh Russia and The Ukraine area so if you track U Military bloggers open source Intelligence you end up reading through A lot of telegram uh materials and I I I Raised that because France has been a Pretty robust Ally of Ukraine since it Was invaded and I I Wonder you know if there's a if there's A national security element to this in Some way because it does seem a little Bit strange that a encrypted application Of which there are many including from Meta and apple and other major tech Companies that the EU does not mind Finding billions of dollars when they Break the rules right um is getting Caught up in this now the fact that Pavo
Had flown in from aeran you can read Into that whatever you want there's Other bits of rumor and gossip that Haven't been confirmed that I'm not Going to share here because I don't feel Confident in the sourcing but I wouldn't Be shocked if there was something Involving National Security here so yeah That's not a tin foil hat that's just Informed speculation this is a popular App France is supporting Ukraine Russia Obviously uh and this person is a dual Citizen of Russia France or qu quad quad I mean like he's got more passports than You know I mean if I lost a finger I'd Have the same number of fingers on one Hand as he has passports which is an Impressive feat honestly but then again If my country of origin was Russia I Also would like to have a second or Third passport so we are now in you know A very weird situation one of the I Would Say maybe it's six or seven major Encrypted apps is being penalized in France why because you can be certain That The encryption used in Google messaging WhatsApp Facebook Messenger IMessage Signal or Skype even I guess has end to End encryption I believe you know is Similar to telegram there for is Everybody else going to get picked up
And I know X normally Twitter was adding ENT encryption I believe I'm in the beta Of it so in DMs I did test it with a Couple of friends um and it's in there So I this all just looks a little Confusing we'll have to cover it over Time right yeah I just feel like we're Missing something like there there seems To be some piece in this Saga that Doesn't quite add up and you know Telegram responded to this news by Saying that they abide by EU laws Including the Digital Services act which Only applies to companies of the largest Size they say telegram CEO travels Frequently in Europe and that it's quote Absurd to claim that a platform or its Owner are responsible for the abuse use Of that platform I mean that that is That is exactly how how I see this and So it just it's I wonder what else is Going to shake loose but uh there has Been some commentary and I want to start Let's go let's go around the horn yeah Yeah let's start with uh the French President we have um his tweet from Earlier today saying that and uh I'm Quoting the English uh language version Here France is deeply committed to Freedom of expression and communication To Innovation and to the spirit of Entrepreneurship and then he goes on to Say that in a state governed by the rule Of law freedoms are upheld within a
Legal framework to protect citizens and Their fundamental rights and then Essentially the arrest of the president To telegram on French took place as part Of an ongoing judicial investigation it Is in no way a political decision and Then the judges will rule not a lot of New context there but I think it was Good for the French President to at Least say you know look I'm not doing This because this is a vendetta there's An ongoing investigation so that to me Means the fact that he felt it necessary To put that out means wanted to squash The concept that this is a political Thing as opposed to Simply a legal issue Around illegal activity which they Pointed out in that press Release so either there's a conspiracy At work here as we're sort of looking at Or this is just people are using this For some pretty heinous stuff and we Want to stop the heinous use of this and We're going to force people who use These and this is the first one we're Going to do it to to give us a back door Now if we were to look at the wider Issue of freedom of speech individual Sovereignty private Communications in The United States which I spent the Weekend getting Dunked On by David Sax's Uh followers because I said Hey listen It's absurd to think here in the US that You know all the services are going to
Be shut down just because Tik Tock is And then now people are saying like oh My god look saak got it right Um this is France not the United States And in the United States I I took a look A long hard look and maybe we could pull Up Sax's tweet I tried to figure out has There been an instance of any instance Of the United States government now We're moving out of France um so yeah Here's the Tweet you know he said on April 24th that Tik Tock had and he has A line through it then telegram X Rumble The truth is Tik Tok has not been banned And Trump did an executive order to ban Tik Tok and then Biden passed Legislation that was voted on and Approved to give a window of time before Tik Tock is needs to divest this seems To me to be completely different than What's Happening Here with telegram or The freedom of speech issues that were Exposed at Twitter or at Facebook where The FBI and people inside those private Companies uh decided that they would Collaborate you know on uh either Silencing voices or getting rid of voice They felt were dangerous let's put that Aside for a Second in the United States there has there been any instance Of the United States government shutting Down private Communications and Encryption and then have there been
Instances of the United States being Extremely frustrated that they cannot Get through these encryption services so I'm just putting that up there so we can Level set because this is a Nuance Discussion now it's there's a bunch of Maga lunatics who follow sacks and who Love to dunk on me because I have this Thing called Nuance but I think the Nuance here is so important it's so Important in the story because this is One instance in France and Tik Tok is a Completely other instance Tik Tok is the Concerns around Tik Tok are they have Spied on Americans Already and they have government Officials on the board and they refuse To Divest so this is a very unique situ That we have them our number one foreign Adversary is has been spying on Americans and it has been proven they Have spyed on Americans right this is Just a fact and that there is a Bipartisan law for them to divest that Has nothing to do with Biden or trump it Has to do with our government in one of The few bipartisan efforts saying we Need to stop I mean we need to stop the Russian I'm sorry the Chinese from Having access to 100 milli ion Americans And we know that they're spying already On them and we know the algorithm could Bend Public views so on a bipartisan
Basis Republicans and Democrats agree Tik Tock no bueno but take us through America here and and what we can look at In terms of how encryption is looked at On American soil yeah so this is a Recurring thing and you're right it's Not partisan the strong encryption at Rest In Motion essentially in in Encryption has been a point of lict Throughout our history um just to pull Some uh some things here that I think Are are pertinent uh the FBI director Comey back in 2014 was complaining that Uh quote we've gone too far by offering Essentially anybody in end encryption um We've also seen in the case of Tik Tok Two consecutive administrations to your Point at least at one point in time Being in favor of that and I bring up Both of those again because it Underscores that the government would Like to have more power uh the Government it's it's an entity it has Incentives it wants to have access to More information and there's a lot of People that are on our public payroll Who are you know hired to keep us safe And they would like to have more Information and it's hard to say no the Kids should be at greater risk for so we Can have greater freedom but that's what It comes down To you almost get tired of this because It comes up you know every couple of
Years but the way the argument tends to Go is something bad happens there's some Data that's protected and then either we Need to for the case of national Security or to protect the kids we need To have an encryption back door and this Always sounds very reasonable to people Who don't build encrypted products and Services but as Apple pointed out in the Wake of the San Bernandino case building An insecure system to allow for Third-party entrance even if it's Thea Secure back door just for the FBI Creates an insecure system and therefore You either have encryption or you don't And consistently here in the US we have Managed to beat back the government and Preserve our right to have encrypt Encryp products but as recently as 2020 Three US senators I think it was cotton Blackburn and one um in Graham put out a Bill that would essentially Force Encryption to be weakened so this is a Recurring issue I I just again don't Understand why it's this moment in time In which an Indian encrypted chat Application got busted by one particular Government and not even a supernational Government like the European Union Block It was just France so I I still feel Like we're missing something but we have Def the right to encryption here in the US and without it we don't have E-commerce privacy Etc so to me you know
We'll do this again in three or four Years Jason but it's another example of Here come the governments once again Wanting to break down the you know the Doors of encryption um this specific Case of pava will for figure out as time Goes on you know listen I am sympathetic To law enforcement they have a tough job They want to protect I think that's the Overwhelming majority of the driving Force here You have an FBI agent a CIA agent you Know local law enforcement and there's a Horrific we'll take the most intense uh Terrorist attack so we have two Instances of that recently there was the Pensacola and 20120 Florida um and the FBI requested Apple's help to unlock two iPhones and Then there was San Bernardino you Pointed out I think that was 2015 According to my notes um and Apper Refused and said hey you know if we do a Back door for this it's going to be a Back door for everything so either and And the the real backdrop here is Encryption's gotten easier you used to Be able to do this kind of encryption But you had to have keys you needed to Be technical to do it then we abstracted Away all the technology and you just Downloaded signal telegram iMessage it Was built in and so that everybody has It by default I can tell you how humans
In the 90% of cases if we had San Bernardino God forbid at or 911 on a regular basis which is to say More than once in a lifetime for 911 and More than once every call it 10 years For something like San Bernardino it Seems like those happen every 10 years Or so if those things happened every Year I can guarantee you that 90% of People would say build the back door That's how strongly most people feel About their own privacy And when those things aren't occurring I Think 90% of people would say uh I want My privacy I don't want back doors uh so I think the public flip-flops on this Issue based upon how secure you feel at This very moment I think maybe 10% of People are principled enough to say I Would rather have and this is this is You know the long and short of it I Would rather have people die in San Bernardino like events or God forbid or 911 uh you know dozen people or Thousands of people I'd rather have that And have my privacy I'd rather have that Every year and maintain my Privacy and uh I think I think that's The reality of the situation is most People don't care about their privacy um Until uh and would be willing to give it Up to be safe just like people were Willing to absolutely have everything Scanned and have there you know I don't
Know if you've had this experience going Through but you know back in the day When we had some intense TSA moments I I Have to tell you the sweep up you ever Get the sweep up your leg and it I've Yeah and then the inside kind of whack It because you know I'm 53 they're not Hang they're hanging a little bit lower These days I hate to make it graphic but I've had my nuts whacked many times and I'm willing to have my nuts whack to Make sure somebody doesn't put a bomb You know in their shorts Um and I'm willing to have somebody look At a silhouette of my junk on one of These scanners so that's the reality of It um how do you feel so I opted out of The new scanners for a couple of years And made them pat pat me down me too me Too yeah I used to I was a wrestler in High school and middle school So getting getting manhandled doesn't Really bother me too much just to be Totally honest I people have different Preferences thereof but U I just I was So annoyed by the intrusion into my Privacy that I just wanted to make it Harder on the system even though I know I'm just making some $14 an hour guy who Just wants to make his car payment you Know do extra work but it just it felt Like the need to stand up a little bit And I I say that because that's my take Here if we give up on encryption we are
Moving towards a world in which every Single thing you do is by default public Forever and I just don't think that's Exactly the way that I would like to Live my life and Jason to be honest I I'm an incredibly boring person if you Read my group chats with my friends You'd be like I'm bored Nothing in there is particularly spicy Or interesting we joke a little bit but That's it I I just think that I have a Right to be able to essentially close my Door in my house and also to close my Digital door and so to your point about Are people going to be willing to say I'll take the risk to have more privacy I will say yes to that now and I'll say Yes to that in the wake of the next Catastrophe that comes along I just Think it is the right way to go and I do Think that it's one of those if you lose It you'll never get it back type So we're fighting this recurring issue And you know just for everyone out there Who's listening this is not a partisan Issue people on all sides of the American political Spectrum occasionally Wish to break encryption and they say Things like well the tech people should Just Tech harder you know they should Just make it even more secure but also Less secure they just want a magic key That does not exist to solve this and How it works folks but I want to ask not
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Have no guns or you know be an American And you're going to have guns forever Get the guns out of the nation there's Too many of them and the second Amendment's pretty high up two kind of Hard to change you start reading the List and you get to it pretty quickly You had a question for me though but Before iut you off I just wanted to Clear I want to get it off my chest here Because I I'm actually proud of America Brit large Te everybody seem to aligned with Privacy good it's it's great news it it Makes me incredibly happy take the win We still have to beat back the Occasional group of senators or house Members when they introduce yet another One of these bills but we'll just keep Doing and we'll keep winning you though So my stance here is definitely Encryption is worth it it's a human Right you can you privacy is a human Right encryption enables that so we must Have it where do you stand on the Balance between encryption and security Because you you set it up but then I Don't think you gave us your uh I mean Your personal take I'm for encryption I'm for privacy um and I am for law Enforcement having uh with subpoenas With judges having other tools in order To make this happen and there are other Tools if you look at the January 6 I'm
Not going to use the word Insurrection I'm just going to say riers the Oathkeepers um the proud boys all of Their Signal um chats were in there um you Know guilty verdicts when they went to Court and they said it very clearly they Were there to carry out an Insurrection They were there to take over the Government they were there to overturn The election now they could be dip shits Ineffective Lunatics you know fine you can have that Argument but all of their stuff was Uncovered and and they their intent was Very clear you can't connect it to Trump Sure fine I don't think Trump told them To to do it explicitly but they didn't Want to do it now you have to ask Yourself well how do they how how do They have their signal how do they have All their encrypted stuff pretty simple Folks you have somebody who joined the Proud boys who is in law enforcement or You have somebody who's in The Proud Boys that law enforcement got to and Said hey come here buddy we got you we Got you on the heroin we got you on the Opioids we got you on this we got you on That here's what you're going to do for Us you're either going to jail for 20 Years for the Opioids or you're going to take this Phone and you're going to take your
Other phone and you're going to take a Picture of your signal or a screenshot Or whatever you know pretty Straightforward the comments on the Screen it's going to go away in an hour You can just take a picture of it so law Enforcement has a lot of opportunities They could put a little camera up there And then three other ones on the Bookcase and when you have your phone Out it can see over your shoulder pretty Clearly so they have lots of ways law Enforcement to with a subpoena with a Warrant to get your information and your Friends in your group chat when you're Doing stupid stuff are going to flip so The law enforcement still has a lot of Options and so I'll go and by the Way how many terrorist attacks since 911 Have been th thed and how many have Occurred the number of people who have Died in terrorist attacks on us soil has In less than Beast thingss today the Number of people who will die with Beast Thingss this week is much Bigger than the number of people who Have died since 9/11 in a terorist Attack which means we should be so proud Of law enforcement and they don't Actually need to crack signal in order To do their jobs I don't think they need It it would be nice I'm sure but they Don't need it yes so we we can have to Your point of secure nation and strong
Encryption now on the point you brought Up about someone being part of a group Leaking things and so forth there was a Really interesting article in 2020 from Wired and that essentially people were Like look I don't know if telegram is Compromised or if it's just completely Full of uh Russian State agents but People were getting picked up um before Doing things that they had talked about In telegram so there was some concern About that again we so we're speculating We don't we don't have tin foil hats on But we are speculating here I mean I I've always belied the tour Network um You know yes is compromised I think it Was built by I think Bitcoin and tour There is a non-zero chance that those Projects Satoshi is the CIA okay tour was built by the CIA or FBI you you might think I'm crazy but do Can you tell me Alex that you think it's A0 percent chance that they have either Compromised or created those two things No t t t i I'm not going to cob with it All I'm just in my head imagining how Many heads in the world of Cryptocurrency would literally explode If it turned out that it was the Government that the government Compromised it in year one let's say Let's say the government knows the this Is Satoshi these are the two other People they went to them and said hey
This is going to be the greatest honey P Of all time we don't need a back door We're just going to monitor it we're Going to sweep 40% of the coins so if This thing does blow you know anything's Possible here and if you look back at The history of this CIA you know you Look back at the history of mad FBI Everybody in between MI6 like their Capabilities are strong yes your Capabilities are very Strong right now startups have to do More with less we all know that and Founders have to be smart with how they Deploy Capital investors are very tuned In to being Capital efficient so if you Need Great Tech talent but you don't Have the time to interview dozens and Dozens and dozens of candidates you need To check out lemon. they have thousands Of OnDemand developers to choose from And these devs are vetted and they're Experience and most of all they're Results oriented they're going to get You the result you're looking for They're not going to leave you hanging And guess what they charge competitive Rates great developers can be incredibly Hard to find we all know that and when You do find them it can be hard to Integrate them into your team but lemon. Will handle all of that for you startups Choose lemon. because they only offer Handpick developers with three or more
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You could even argue that social media Rewards people who are first and wrong If they're alloud um but I I do think The conflation of different issues Around the world to make a political Point that matches up with your own Views is a little bit cheap and a little Bit hacky especially about an issue that Matters so much to me which is freedom Of speech so like I just I just want to Say let's all do our best here you know I've enjoyed coming to your Ted talk Thank you no I mean partisans will take Any piece of information put it into Their partisan filter and then try to Get up a win from it I think what we're Trying to do here is maybe have a Nuance Discussion the fact is France Very different than the United States United States let's go through the Instances where the government has Actually shut stuff down because I acting in good faith and a person of Nuance and somebody who was a former Journalist said I wonder what I'm Missing so I asked Chad GPT and I asked The lazy web on Twitter two best places For me to go to collect some information And the overwhelming feedback I got of Things that the government has shut down Explicitly were back page and Silk Road And then I got a couple of people who Said lava bit uh under duress shut down Those are the only three I don't know if
You found any in the research of things Being shut down but let's talk about Those and how those are distinctly Different than iMessage or Whatsapp sure So Silk Road was the I'll go ahead and Say Infamous uh early crypto Marketplace For the buying and selling of a various Things it was the place to get drugs for A long period of time um it was also the Place you could get a Hitman and uh Eventually ran a foul of the law I mean To me if you're running eBay for drugs Uh you're going to get in trouble and That's nothing to do with free speech That has to do with just breaking the Law and I think we learned a lot about Back to your point about Bitcoin being a Honeypot which is that not everything in The world of web 3 is actually entirely Anonymous so to me that does not fit Into the rubric that you mentioned yes This the the Silk Road was a Marketplace On the dark web explicitly to do illegal Things there was no Legal platform nature to it you could Say it was a platform a Marketplace is I Guess a platform but if it was for legal Things it would be Etsy and Craigslist And eBay those legal things exist in the World or Amazon third party sellers why Would you go through the dark web now if You feel drugs should be legal and Decriminalized which I do in almost all Cases except for the super drugs fenol
And meth I think those drugs should be In a different category I think the Other one should be regulated Decriminalized cleaned up and and Otherwise made um you know less Dangerous for people who are addicted And you know whatever we could have I Think they should all be reclassified as Well uh no complaints there yeah the Most I mean the dark web people were Putting hits on people I think that was Proven so and and hacking people so you Could go on those and like literally say I want to harass this person put a dead Fish on their doorstep for a Bitcoin you Know and people would do that uh it was It was a wild time it was also very Early on in the in the in the web three Era if you will so not really something That's talked about too much lately then There was back page uh which was Essentially prostitution ads and Prostitution is broadly illegal in the United States and it got shut down now There is a lot of arguments to be made From sex workers that uh I'm going back Into my memory bucket here that shutting Down back page led to less safe working Conditions for sex workers and that's a Perfectly valid argument to make um but That doesn't have to do with what the Law is and the law says no and it got Shut down and again not really free Speech if you're committing felonies so
That to me is not a good example lava Bit is I think the the one that does Stick out to me as if a possible point Of wait so if you go back in time Edward Snowden he used that service for email So when he dropped all of his documents The CEO of the lavet email service got a Couple of knocks on his door as you Might expect so lavabit was a secure Email service like what's the one that All the journalists Use proton M so if you use proton Mal if I have encryption on my side you have Encryption nobody can get that message Correct that's my understanding of how It works and it's why I chose to use it So I really hope that we have that right But what happened was he essentially Lawyered up and was like whoa you know I'm going to try to figure out what's Going on here and then the sheer weight Of government expectation about what he Would do what he had to do but how we Get to follow up was so great he said I'm not going to do it I'm out and then Later on I think was relaunched in some Capacity but essentially the government Leaned on a very small company and it Decided to just fold and evaporate Versus try to comply with The um the demands uh that is that is a Disappointment I think because think About the other people on that service And the possible cyber security issues
And just freedom of communication and so Forth that that makes me sad to go back Through and reread um I hope that we do Better in the future but there's not a History here to your earlier point of Encrypted applications being banned in The United States and so to me it has Not happened Tik Tok is not a reason Example One tech executive being Arrested in France does not mean that This entire experiment in human Communication is over and it means Nothing to do with Rumble which was Thrown in there for reasons that confuse Me well I think they're on the right I Think partisans who care very much about Their political party winning on both Sides obviously um I think on the right Feel under assault because of what Happened on Twitter with the shutting Down of a lot of right wing and that's a Private company if a private company Decides they want to have real names as One example like LinkedIn does or Facebook requires real names um or if They don't want people talking about Politics which threads has said any Political discussion is going to be down Ranked by the algorithm and then in Other places it might you know X might Be UPR ranking uh political discussions Uh okay those are just private company Cho that hasn't to do with your Individual
Sovereignty um now it is could you could Consider it censorship but it's private Censorship in the same way a private Company might say you're not allowed to Come in here and stand up on the Restaurant table and I was just about to Say yeah you know give your speech about Whatever you know um there's a pizza Store near my house and they have a Community wall they have um I live near Universi there's like join a study and Poetry reading and you know a play from Some kids and you know local magazines And such uh that's not a free speech Forum because they are allowing that Space for people who don't abuse it but If I they take down requests for hits on That I think if I said I'm G to kill the Mayor of Providence and put a poster up That offering $50 I'm pretty sure it Wouldn't last they might take it down so You would be censored the man would be Censoring thing there's a conflation of Corporate power and private corporate Power and public government action that I think is particularly pernicious Because people blend the two to confuse People who aren't familiar with the Distinction and that to me is poor Stewardship of an Audience now Jason you and I could say That we think that private companies Should have different moderation uh Approaches that they should have less
Active algorithms and that they should Let people have more unweighted Discourse on their services but I Believe the Market would tell us to go Build our own dang Service as opposed to Complaining about what someone else is Doing because you know what meta wants To do it wants to make money lots of it Yeah I think that's the beginning and End of it and then you know they this Was tried in Florida they did this Social media censorship law SP 772 that I think made its way to the Supreme Court and got a bunch of legal Challenges it may have gotten sent down To a lower court but you know they they Wanted to Define at scale social Networks as having a different private Company Rule set right so once you hit X number Of users You Can't Ban somebody Interesting um because you did see People disappear you could take somebody You know independent of how you feel About him I knew him when he was an Independent journalist Milo yannopoulos Who kind of went he went kind of I mean I knew him when he was like a guardian He might have worked a tech runch for a Hot minute uh back in the day but he I Met him once yeah back in London he was A tech journalist in London you know and And was considered like you know Flamboyant and and effervescent and and
Cheeky then he went like full Nazi and Was like you know got a little bit Strange there towards the end uh and Then somehow wound up with Kanye but he Was banned across all platforms now There is something to that which I am Sympathetic to which is if you could be Banned on YouTube Twitter Facebook uh Rumble you know LinkedIn Everything sure you have no voice in the World I'm also sympathetic to those Platforms not wanting to have somebody Putting him aside who's a Nazi on their Platforms and and substack had to deal With it substack is a free speech Platform they really care about Free Speech but then somebody was like Hey I'm going to search for the word Nazi or White supremacy and I'm going to find The long tail of like I don't know five Newsletters they found I think Casey Found like five newsletters that were Yeah kind of Nazi kind of wa to premises and he took His custom somewhere else I mean he made A business decision based off a business Decision private companies deciding when To do business with one another of their Own free will based on the rules and Policies of the other company is not Free speech it is business but how do You feel about the at scale censorship And like nuking of a person this Happened Trump this you know in the in
The most canonical example he was taken Off of Twitter Facebook and YouTube I mean That's kind of like a death sentence for A political candidate and you know Looking back on that do you have any Thoughts on it oh I mean the general Concept worries me because one concern That I have and this brings up you and I Our favorite topic antitrust and Lena Con but it does seem that they're in the Hands of just a handful of Corporations There is an enormous amount of control Over what people see and consume and Just to put this into kind of gen Z gen A is it gen a generation Alpha sure why Not sure let's go with that the kids and The younger kids they use YouTube like Television yes so YouTube is essentially Cable all in one platform which means it Has enormous power and it does concern Me that people can be bounced off these Platforms because it's not like you can Go to YouTube and knock on the door and Be like hey can we sit down and have a Chat about this no you got bounced by an Algorithm that just said no to you and There's no customer support so it does Seem to be a bit too powerful and that's Why you know I like uh more competition In the market could place more space for Ideas I go beef with Rumble other than The fact that so far it's been a Terrible business but um and their maror
Complex is pretty frustrating but it's Good PR for them so I kind of get it no But it worries me but you know make our What should what should happened with Trump you think if you if you were in Charge what would you have done you you Have January 6 occurs people are pretty Scared like hey this could have been you Know many people could have died instead Of like the one woman who died um you Know those Poli showed great police Officers well they they kind of died Afterwards suicides or or other issues But not in on that day but you know when I talked to a number of law enforcement In my family they said hey you know we Should have just unloaded you know like When people start beating up cops you Unload the clip I'm amazed that people Got away with what they got away with There because I've seen people shot for Uh 1,000th of a percent of that you know Like literally you'll have people go Into their like pocket and the police Are like take your hand out of your Pocket you ref to take your hand out of Your pocket you get shot pretty Straightforward like cops got to protect Themselves here you got cops being Beaten crushed in the door and they Don't unload I was like whoa that is Some incredible thank God but like some Incredible um you know restraint thank You so you know I thought the Trump
Thing should have been a temporary ban I Think it should have been like a Whatever 30-day cool off like let's Figure out what happened here and I I I Don't the permanent ban I thought was Weird how do you permanently ban the President or former president you know Without a trial or whatever I just Thought he should have been like hey Maybe 30 days we have a cool off and we Talk about it 30 days for inciting an Insurrection as Mitch McConnell kind of Detailed and Romney UH 60 days for I Mean I don't you end up with a weird Hierarchy if I was in charge of it I Would have just said he's very annoying And I don't want him on my service but This goes back to the point of it's a Little weird that single Points of Power Have so much control over the discussion And that's why I am in favor of more Free platforms around the internet to Prevent corporate Powers which we have Less redress to telling us what we can And can't say uh because and YouTube by The way I mean they're so powerful that I think they had to take a deep look in The mirror when this one mentally Disturbed woman got her videos Demonetized she bought a gun she drove To the YouTube campus in San Bruno and She shot the place off and she killed Some people so with great power comes Great responsibility and this idea that
You can just turn people's accounts off Turn off their monetization I think That's a big major Learning for these platforms which is Hey you're kind of turning off an entire Person's life if you turn off their Account like this and in the case of a Mentally Disturbed person you know they They might come and do something Incredibly damaging and dangerous so Just proves how powerful these platforms Are we we have to move on but one thing Also bipar the uh people want to Diminish section 230 protections for Companies this allows them to Essentially decide what is possible and Not possible on their platforms and Ironically it's bipartisan from two Different angles but there is an attempt To limit corporations abilities to make Decisions like this to me that's the That that's that's a cure that's worse Than the illness if that makes sense Yeah but um we'll talk about that let's Go lightning round we got some good data Here to go Through so first off we're talking about Secondary sales Jason the news item is That g squ has raised $1.1 billion for Its new secondary fund $4 billion under Management the quote that stuck out to Me was from Larry Ashbrook do you know Him I do not I do not know G squar oh All right then well here we're both
Learning then so Larry said that he can Quote buy shares in the secondary Market At about a 30% discount to a company's Value and at 70 to 80% discount to the Prices paid back in 2021 basically Rolled up a whole bunch of money he's Going to go out there and buy stakes From you and other VCS uh out to me is The amount of money here at play $ 1.1 Billion funds enormous especially if You're buying discounted Stakes so Thoughts this is uh a great sign that The market is in the late stages perhaps Even uh past the end of the bottoming Out when people see an opportunity like This that they can and the greed is There you know there's blood in the Streets things are marked off 70 % from Their Peak 30% from their recent Valuations that means an opportunity has Emerged and people want to start buying And you know we saw that two years ago When I started J trading I was like this Makes no sense like uber at $20 Facebook At $90 like these valuations don't make Sense to me this feels once in lifetime And I just took uh you know a little bit Of money and uh just started buying up Shares didn't make it entertaining here On the podcast and then I but my goal Was always to hold them for tenure to See how they would do and see if I was Good at buying at the bottom and sure Enough I I beat Nancy Pelosi in the
Morning the point is that's what's Happening here some smart person is Saying the opportunity to invest in the Next set of new companies that might be Great but I see another opportunity that I think is better so instead of 1.1 Billion to the next cohort of companies Like I'm doing and many VCS are doing He's saying the last cohort of companies I can you know do a little bit of math And kick the tires find some great Opportunities in the last vintage or the Last two vintages and I think that's Wise because I'm looking at the last two Or three vintages and our first two Funds and saying you know what there's Some winners in here that are Undervalued and I'm not getting Secondary offers for them and the only Secondary offers I see anecdotally are From employees who need to sell so I Will get an email sometimes hey do you Want to increase your position in X Y And Z and I say okay who's selling and What are they selling oh it's common Share I say okay it's not preferred it's Common okay those common Shares are Coming from an employee okay what are They selling for and then I look at what The preferred price is and I'm like oh That's interesting thanks for the Information put it in a spreadsheet I Have it just for my own knowledge and um You know we're not buying anymore I'm
Certainly not buying common because That's behind the preference T but yeah Here is a great opportunity and I think An even better opportunity might be for The companies to buy back these shares You know if it's that low why not raise Money as a company and say we're going To get we're going to raise some money To buy back some shares right and and Clean up the cap table so lots of Opportunities this is a very bullish Sign for me for private Market companies And inspires me to keep working on the Twist 500.com really really interesting Yeah and uh just a last data point here These have become a lot more popular so If you go back to 2013 there's about $28 Billion worth of trades in the secondary Market that Rose to about 134 billion According to William Blair in 2021 and They were expecting this year to come in Roughly the same so lots of transactions Lots of private kind of capital in Motion something to keep an eye on and To me Jason this is just the IPO Market Is trash people are desperate for time Or money and uh time's running out so We'll see what happens next two other Firms doing it is stepstone and Industry Venture so those two are two of the Other big names stepstone industry Ventures are are pursuing this strategy As well very smart okay next next up is Uh just the end of a big project with
The IBM in China we have talked about The China trade and how that country was At one point the leading light of Venture capital for a short period of Time and since then has turned away from Capitalism and a market economy and has Seen things shift dramatically we have a Chart here of IBM's Revenue in China That I think is incredibly illustrative Of the dynamic for American Business uh Jason the blue bars are their business In China on a percentage basis uh and Then the gray is are overall growth so IBM is growing again but in is seems Some of its sharpest declines and Essentially this comes down to China Trying to buy more domestic and so IBM's Yanking a thousand jobs out of the Nation that's a lot that's a big Decoupling but here instead of it being Geopolitics it seems to be just a Straight business decision we're not Doing well we're out yeah and and the I Think a lot of these are R&D jobs from What I read research and development so You know it makes also Sense on a Geopolitical basis um reading into the Tea leaves here a little bit Perhaps if you're doing R&D in China Maybe the government wants you to do That a little bit more domestically or In other locations where you're not have Where you have maybe a little more Respect of Ip intellectual property so
You know the decoupling continues um we Probably coupled a little too much uh With China and created too many Dependencies so Investments over there No VCS no private Equity investment and Now we're seeing the next shoe to drop Which is you know Services businesses And research and development they're They're going to be out manufacturing's Leaving um so you know the India and Vietnam are the big beneficiaries there And iPhone 15 or I know iPhone 14 was Being made in India I think 15's going To be made there I kind of got laughed At on all in when I said they're gonna Move this all to India and it's like It's actually happening um in India's a Thriving growing country that's you know Pretty I mean it's a perfect democracy By far but it's a much more functional Democracy it is a democracy yes so which Is very different than how China works Very different than how China Works Where you know if you were investing in All these education companies or Alibaba's Financial Group ant you know You can just have the whole thing just Go away um like Russia did to Pavo with His business like your business can be Seized or shut down just like that so Who's investing in a market where some God King can come in and just be like It's hard enough with competition coming In you know and fighting the competitors
Or or incumbents to have the government Come in and just pull the plug that's Kind of rough on the on the India Point Actually they're now going to manufactur The next iPhone Pro Series I think Before they were doing the lower tier IPhones now I think they're expanding Into the highest tier as well which Means that if the Chinese market closed Tomorrow that they would still be able To at least for a Time keep making IPhones which is something that I don't Think people 5 years ago thought was Possible at all but it turns out where There's a will and a couple hundred Billion dollars in the bank Jason There's a way shockingly enough I'm just Reading here some notes um 25% of the World's iPhones are built in India now Wow yeah now I think a lot of those to Your point were the earlier Generation but you know the fact that The gap between the new the latest and Greatest and the at scale ones it's Closing speaks volumes and um this is Where you know we do need to think about The Decoupling there are there are good Aspects to decoupling because there was Too much dependency like being able to Get masks and drugs and stuff like that Out of China during the pandemic that's A little Troublesome and chips if they Invade Taiwan but also the dependencies
Uh the codep dependencies can make for a Good marriage we're like hey are we have A mortgage and we have three kids like We shouldn't get divorced we should we Should try to stick this out and go to Therapy I'm afraid right Now this uh this could lead to hey just Straight up it feels like we're in a Divorce for China like it's Irreconcilable differences I wonder if That is good for society um it would be Better that businesses were maybe still Functioning in China but I think it's Largely China's decision yeah I I don't Think it's us I mean I mean we only Ended up so overly coupled because Because so many International businesses Wanted to do business there cuz it was Efficient and cheap and high quality and All those things and it turns out that's Not going to last the way this was put To me um I forget where I read this but Someone said it was never going to last That the entire world put its Manufacturing on one coast of an Autocratic nation and when you think About it that way yeah that was never Going to last lasted for a long time now Two quick things to get to our L story Here one India going back to the point About encryption don't forget they've Been in fight with WhatsApp about the Encryption in that service so another Another country another government
Another Democracy doing some stuff and then also Uh in China this week there was the World robot conference and here is the Stat that blows my mind CNBC reported That Beijing claimed 27 humanoid robots Debuted at the event which was a record Now we've talked about on the show for The Twist 500 companies like 1X and Figure and ronics and cobot and these Other companies that are building Humanoid robots we've also talked about China ev's industrial overc capacity and Production and it seems that what we Have seen in EVS Jason is now being Replicated to some degree in humanoid Robots but personally I'm kind of Excited because if there's that many new Ones that's a lot of competition and Competition yields great results so Bring on the robots I think this is Going to parallel the what we saw with The darer challenge for people don't Know the darer challenge defense Industry here in the US put a challenge Out for self-driving it was comical and Bad it was kind of laughable and when You watch Optimus or Humane or any of These robots with the exception of Boston Dynamics doing back flips you Know it does feel like you're dealing With like uh a drunk toddler and it's Going to just like the self-driving cars Look like a drunk toddler was driving
Them and as we go from drunk toddler to Sober toddler to teenager distracted Teenager to focused adult professional You know with a cup of coffee in them um You know the world's going to get a lot Better and you know the self-driving We're seeing I use FSD every day number Of interventions for me probably one Every 20 minutes um it's not bad and uh You know when it's a highway it's zero Now Highway also is high stakes because You're going fast and if you get an Accident you're dead so it's pretty good That it's perfect and you know I'm only Talking about Teslas here and then you Know when you get to weird left turns or Unmarked roads or you know in a city People doing weird stuff that's when I Find myself disengaging is I get into Some weird you know area um and it's not Clearly labeled or it's a three-way stop And I think that's just time I think It's just time in getting those edge Cases ironed out but I was very very It's not on the docket today but I'm Very encouraged that Uber did a cruise Deal um and and that's a big deal Uber Has wh Mo already and Uber has the byd Deal now I'm still a shareholder in Uber I mean I have I did sell some to MOS on Back in the day but I'm still long Because I do think once this Technology Hits full deployment which is Going to take a decade I'm sure and you
Also have to build the Cars uh I think the market for ride Sharing goes from one less than 1% of Rides we calculated 250 million a week Less than 1% of rides in the United States I think it gross to 20% so then Your question is if it does grow to 20% In 20 years like let's say it adds a Percentage point every year which should Roughly be double you know from for now Um how much of that does Uber capture Versus the competitors and if it Captures any amount of it it's going to Be a huge business I mean if it goes From one to 5% and the other 15% goes to Other players Uber's still a huge Business like a ginormous business a Business for the ages so I I do think It's a trillion dollar company and I do Think Tesla weo and byd will become Trillion dollar companies I think There'll be five trillion dollar Companies in soft driving I honestly Believe that and young people don't seem To want to have driver's licenses so no That's now man don't get me started About that that means they're too Friendly with their parents I could not Wait to get the hell away from mine that You know what parents are giving their Kids Uber um teenager accounts now they Have a teenager account so when your kid Gets in the car you can um see your Child going somewhere you get alerts
That they got dropped off safely all That stuff and then those rides I Believe are automatically recorded and Then the recording is done so if Somebody were to start talking to your Child it would be recorded on both their Phones right so there's like this um Agreement that if you pick up children And you want those rides I think you Have to somebody will correct me but I Think there's a lot more monitoring and That's fine because you're in someone Else's car part of a service but I mean When I was 16 17 I wanted to get in my Car and drive out of my parents line of Sight yes because once I was out of Their L sight they didn't know what I Was doing I was what was your first free Uh I had a I had a a roughly 10-year-old BMW 318 TI which is the little hatchback BMW little teeny 4-cylinder engine Tented Windows it was so much Fun I was I mean cuz once you can go Away you can leave and then you don't Have to be there anymore your parents Can't tell you what to do that's what I Don't get about kids these days is uh They're like friends with their parents Like what that blows my mind yeah well They're not part of it here let me show You uh here I'll show you my first car I Should go buy this car let's see let's See 1973 Mustang Grande hard top with Vinyl so that was vinyl that leather is
Like vinyl and it was mustard gold um Kind of color And that's a 351 Cleveland it's all you See the front of the car is as big as The rest of the car it's all engine and When you would hit the gas on this thing Man the front of the car went Up was so powerful rear wheel drive I Presume yeah I mean it was there's a 351 Cleveland I mean it was Bonkers uh and yeah there is 351c four Barrel I I think mine came with a two Barrel and I just upgraded it to a four Barrel but yeah so there's a two the um Incredible car U I should buy one I mean I always wanted to have a convertible Version of it it was beautiful the 1970 To 1973 was the end of the muscle car Era questions we'll do one or two yeah So the the two they are most interesting To me um one's from Austin Hill one's From JB they bring up two other Companies that might fit under the Rubric of shutdowns and so I'll just Throw these at you and get your feedback So Austin says kick messenger Kik uh was Shut down by the US government it was a V funding Canadian company and it was Sued but I think it was sued over its Cryptocurrency work and then I think if Memory serves they shut down the Messaging app to focus on the crypto Side of things so I don't think that Falls Jason under your rubric of
Shutdown for encryption purposes no I Don't think it was um I think they they Did have a legal battle but that was With the SEC over kin so they were doing the Shenanigans and that I mean and to just Do a call back you know we don't know How Pavo was making money but he was Making a fortune from telegram Apparently and so if Money is flowing and illegal activities Are occurring and the government Connects those in some way fairly or Unfairly that kind of changes things so Keep that in mind and I think that's Where the Silk Road and the back page Stories might be interesting parallels Here we we have to wait for the court Cases and the details but if pav was Benefiting from these horrible things They're alleging were occurring and Those people were paying in some way or He was monetizing in some way and they Can connect those that's the big problem As I that would be that would be huge And then uh the other idea that JB Brought up was uh dark wire which was The FBI's inrupt cell phone company but That was the FBI creating a fake Encrypted app to catch criminals that Wasn't them shutting down Legitimate app so to me related still Interesting still interesting yeah well Very interesting the yeah here's the
Thing if anyone comes to you online Offering to do something bad for you Don't say yes because it's probably the Government trying to trap you now I have Lots of thoughts about entrapment but That's not this conversation uh and then Finally to jcal uh right right at the End here uh what is the real reason do You believe is why I'm going to Translate Jason what do you think is the Real reason why telegram's CEO was Arrested well I think we've kind of hit That as best we can I mean I think we I Think I'm going to go with you that There's more to the story here than meet Young because we are a little confounded About why Now and the confusion as to what's Happening being illegal or not so There's something else at play is what My spidey sense says based on our 50-minute discussion of the entire space What do you Think hard agree there's going to be More that comes out about this uh There's a lot of interesting things National Security the ton token which is The telegram Associated cryptocurrency Lots of things to to dig into as long as Strong encryption makes it out the other End I'm happy if pavle is innocent then May he also walk free and quickly um but Guys I think we need to wait about 24 More hours and then we'll have a lot
More information because every single News room is working on this if you were Think about this like a hand to Poker Which is kind of how I look at Everything in life um it's that bad the Addiction you know the whole cards was Him being arrested those are our two Cards we know those he was arrested by The French coming off his plane for dis Moderation issue the Flop were the Charges that just came down and we just Sort of Examining The Flop right now Right so we got to put those two things Together what are our whole cards what's The Flop the turn in the river will come Out during the case if there is in fact The case there's going to be a turn There's going to be a river there's two More cards and those two could have a Dramatic impact on what's Happening here And we'll be here for you uh subscribe To this week and startups on YouTube hit The Bell we go live two or three times a Week we're trying to get to three times A week because we know you love when Alex and I get do news go to twist 500.com and look at those 500 private Companies uh we're going to do some sort Of an event around them uh and we're Gonna have a really fun time uh building Out that list we're trying to add you Know uh you know couple dozen companies A week uh to twist 500 and there's a Newsletter for Twist 500 in the morning
Is at free in the afternoon will be paid We're going to try to profile all those So we're looking for a full-time Journalist researcher here uh over time Hopefully in Austin to be in an office With me if you're interested email alexw Launch. and send a writing sample yeah More to come on that uh actually I just Finished our media plan Jason and uh Everybody will be live later this week We have some special stuff coming up see You then byebye
