So this is a a box of our 12 packs these Are the level three strawberries on the Packaging there's a designed a full Video game level that we created this is A 12pack so this is a single serve the Idea was like this is what I stick in my Kids lunchbox every day a lot of Investors or customers like well where Do I find hosts I'm like nope the other Problem is how do you let hosts down Nicely who aren't the right fit because I get like hate mail once a week from Someone who's been rejected I think that Was my insight was you know when you Wereing the all-in meetups I was like I Don't want weirdos using meetups as a Way to get customers or clients for Their Consulting business totally try to Do that I don't want my Brands hijacked To do their BD this week in startups is brought to You byte domains don't miss our jam with Jcal contest to apply and get more Details go to jamith jk. Tech brought to You byte domains Dev Squad most Dev Agencies only offer developers why Because product management is hard get An entire product team for the cost of One US developer plus 10% off at Dev Squad.com Twist and Washington Post stay informed With trusted journalism from The Washington Post right now twist Listeners can subscribe for just 50
Cents per week for your first year at Washingtonpost.com Twist all right everybody welcome back To this week in startups I'm your host Jason calacanis what do I do I invest in About 100 companies a year with a team Of 20 at launch and we have a couple of Different programs one's called founder University where we work with teams that Um generally are two or three people Working on a side hustle maybe they're Not Incorporated yet and they're Thinking about building a startup and uh We'll give those companies maybe $25,000 Or $125,000 to kind of see if the Experiment works then sometimes we will Uh have somebody come to our accelerator They've got a company in Market they're Making $10,000 a month they want to Learn how to raise around and grow their Product from 10K to 50K and you know we Work with them on that small set of Tasks and then sometimes we do direct Investments in companies that are Cooking with oil and uh today we have a Really great company called final boss Sour and James Hicks is the CEO and Co-founder of this company you can go to Their website right now final boss.com And this is a company that our firm is Investing in in a direct investment the Third Way We invest so we have pre Launch companies founder University we Have an accelerator companies that have
Small amount of Revenue and then we have You know the more robust companies a Little bit further along in their Journey that we do a direct investment In and the reason I wanted to invest in This company is because my friends over At Science Inc which is a startup Studio Have done some really great companies You've heard of Dollar Shave Club Famously and liquid death uh which has Done extraordinary and uh I've been Working with Mike Jones and Peter fam Over there for 20 years and I said hey Next time you have something interesting Let's talk and we started looking at a Couple projects to work together on and Final boss sour was the one that I Selected that I really wanted to invest In because I was really taken by the Entire concept the hrant the theater of It and most of all watching my own Children my three daughters engage in it And other friends of the family and just How excited they were and watching the Tik Tok presence now direct consumer is Incredibly hard so James welcome to the Program and let's talk about modernday Direct to consumer And just consumer packaged Goods this Typically is not something that Venture Capitalists want to invest in but this Venture capitalist this investor um Thinks that you know maybe the top one Or two% of this category could have
Venture likee returns and so we wanted To engage with you and your company so Welcome to the program thanks Jason tell Me a little bit about what you're doing And the state of consumer packaged Goods Today and how it's different than let's Say it was 10 and even 30 years ago some Of the biggest changes in cpg have Really derived out of like the younger Generations and their mistrust of Legacy Brands so um people grew up you know Eating Kelloggs and and um you know PNG Products and uh they've come aware that Some of the ingredients used in these Products are just generally not good for You you know I'm talking about dyes Preservatives the science is out there People are starting to realize that so There's a general mistrust and so There's with that mistrust there's an Openness to new brands and new brands That are come off as authentic and new Brands that come off as telling a really Interesting story online through social Got it and it's that world in which you Know final boss hour is you know was Created and is inhibiting and is growing Got it and so when I looked at this Brand I noticed a couple things Immediately one sour candies not for Everybody But for people who do like them they are Quite addicted to them they they have a Passion for them so it's it's a weird
Category maybe like dark chocolate in That way it's not for everybody but People who do like it they can't get Enough of it and it's their go-to second I saw final boss and I thought okay Final boss that's a video game Nomenclature and that means like when You get to the end of a level there's The final boss the strongest one then I Looked at the packaging and the Packaging was really interesting in Terms of its iconography and you know Being very evocative of Maybe video Games and then it had a structure to it Almost like a game when you buy this Product you have level one two and three And you have different flavors okay wow So there's a lot more to this than Sour Patch Kids now Sour Patch Kids were in My day and age I remember when those Came out probably in the 90s I would Guess you'll correct me if I'm wrong was It the 90s when SAR Patch Kids came out Yeah yeah so was kind of like not my Generation is the next but it was like a Very interesting thing cuz you had gummy Bears and you know this kind of played Off of the Cabbage Patch Kids Sour Patch Kids it was it was kind of like these Like you know uh alternative you know Dolls or kids but it was still Onedimensional here you have this also Like the hot ones series on YouTube a Challenge hot ones on YouTube uh if you
Haven't seen it is that show where you Eat a series of chicken wings for the Audience and they are increasingly hot And celebrities go on there like Conan O'Brien or you know Sydney sweetney or Whoever is like the icon of the moment Selling a new movie or TV show and you Watch them burn their lips and just try To deal with these Falon fars so too With final boss right you have this Increasing sour event where you see how Far you can take it and if you can take This incredible level of sour which is Quite interactive creates to a lot of Discussion and it comes in this Beautiful box you open it up you get a Whole bunch of different packets and When I brought that box home to kids man They lost their minds and this became Like almost like entertainment combined With this enjoyment of flavors Etc and Then just the little cherry on top and This is why was so you know enamored With the product design hey pretty um Natural you know is a real fruit so this Is more like tapping into that real Fruit market now I don't know if fruit Rollups are all real fruit but I know a Lot of them Market the elves like fruit Roll ups as fruit so I've said a whole Bunch in terms of the product design but Take me into how you create a product Like that did I accurately describe These like five different vectors for
The product you did you did you nailed It um so I'll tell you how it came up so I am in this segment that you alluded to That loves sour um and not just sour Candy you know pickles anything that's Like kind of sour taste really really Interesting me and I too saw the hot Ones podcast the one chip challenge that Like spicy was really having a moment on Social and sour wasn't and I attributed That to the fact that really sour candy Has not changed since Sour Patch Kids Came about it's all just been some Derivation of of gelatin and sour dust And so I figured there must be a way Like spicy did with unlocking Peppers There must be something to do to unlock In sourness and I found that in Fruit so If you start with you know something That is naturally sour like a dried Cranberry or a dried blueberry and you Treat that like a gummy bear like a Sour Patch Kid ah you can together unlock This much deeper this much like Full-bodied sour experience that is more Natural and is just better for you and Better taste and so that's how it came Up with the product around the brand When we were testing it around with Other people we found that like everyone Had a different tolerance level for Sourness and so we started testing it in Different levels of sourness and it all Just kind of felt like a video game uh
And so we you know went really deep into The video game concept we built out as If we were building a kind of classic 90s Running Man video game we built a Legend built a an enemy we built Heroes We built a level system we built uh mini Bosses for each individual level that Became the mascot of the products we Really went fully into that storytelling With the idea that like our product is Essentially a game right and that's Playing out on Tik Tok it's playing out On social where people are challenging Each other to go up levels and and Seeing if they can make a face and it's All kind of playing out kind of as you As you laid it out Founders I recently Introduced ramsy schaer and he is from Uptrends AI you know me I love putting On a trade so when I saw uptrends build AI news search for stocks I was like wow This is a great idea and even better my Friends at uptrend AI use a te domain Name and you know what if you want to Come on the podcast and you want to be a Guest on this week in startups and you Have under 2 million in funding and you Got one of those amazing Tech domain Names you can join our new program it's Called jam with jcal you come on the Pod We talk for 10 15 minutes I give you Advice you ask me questions and we share Your vision with the world and you know What this is all because of the
Generosity of my friends atte you Knowtech rabbit. 1x. so many people are Using it we use it for founder fridays. Te and you can apply to do a jam session With me your boy jcal Let's Jam out on Your vision go to jam withth jc. Tech Super simple J M wi Jc. Tech we're picking the final winner Soon so time's running out under 2 Million funding and you got a te domain Name apply at jam with jc. te so that's The product design part which is hey how Can you innovate on the flavor profile And there is this new category I don't Know how to describe it but since you're In the industry you probably would where There's junk food MH and then there's Clean eating right just eating the Blueberries and then not only eating the Blueberries but eating the organic Blueberries the pesticide free of Blueberries you know maybe even the Farmers market or the ones you grow in Your backyard so okay let's say we have Those two end of the spectrums there's Fake blueberry you know I'm trying to Think of a candy but you know some Incredibly fake high fructo blueberry Garbage on the left all the way on the Right you have you grew your own Blueberries sustainably you know with no Pesticides but in the middle you know Maybe we want something that is Convenient maybe is a little bit sweeter
But we don't want all the chemicals but We also want it packaged so it's shelf Stable so we want some amount of Convenience and we don't want to do work What is this new area called that's like Not junk food but slightly better than You know or let's say dramatically Better than junk food but not quite as Arduous as you know sourcing the the Fresh berries and you know the cost of That what is that category called we Call it better for you um another term Could be like permissible Indulgence um Where where you know you're you're Enjoying something it's got all the Flavor it's got all the excitement but It doesn't have all of the harmful Ingredients I like bfu better for you Better for you yep bfu that's call bfu On the Pod yeah sure so bfu is becoming A category am I correct that there's or Or that's a swim Lane that's opening Absolutely cuz like on the on one end You've got basically diet foods right You know get foods that are using Artificial sugars and and they may look Like the sour patch kids but they taste Nothing like it they you know there's All kinds of issues with it but in the Middle where we're where we're playing It's a compromise right they we're we're Removing all the bad you know there's Still sugar there's still it's you're Not going to lose weight eating our
Product but you're not going to ingest a Bunch of um you know chemicals and Preservatives and you'll feel better About yourself and you more importantly You'll feel better about giving it to Your kids because it's it's all natural Stuff yeah I think that is when it comes To kids you know the thing we're all Kind of as parents wondering about which Is you know yeah a kid's childhood Should have some candy or ice cream it's Not the end of the world uh they should See some funny movies but maybe we don't Want them on Tik Tok for eight hours a Day and we don't want them eating just You know sour batch kids or you know Whatever and so I kind of really like That aspect of it uh let's talk about Packaging for a second sure I notice There's like you know bags that you Would normally just put on your shelf or You could put into I suppose a kid's Lunch pal and they can bring it to School and maybe have a little Interaction during lunch but there's Like some other packaging you've Designed explain the the packaging and And then what the goals are there yeah I've got some here so so this is a a box Of our 12 packs these are the level Three strawberries and so you know on The packaging there's designed a full Video game level that we created this is A 12 pack so this is a single serve the
Idea was like this is what I stick in my Kids lunchbox every day right it's a Simple it's about it's about an ounce of Strawberries there's probably about a Dozen actual strawberries in here so There's tons of vitamins and um Antioxidants and stuff associated with It that was our hero product and then we Created the sampler box that's become Our most popular product which is like We designed it so that it's got It's Almost like a board gate where each Level is in its own compartment and so People can work their way up the levels Of blueberries up the levels of Strawberries and and have like a really Engaging experience and then our third This is actually a new form factor we Just launched a couple weeks ago this is A three and a half ounce bag of mangoes Um this is what we're calling our mango Dippers so in this one we we've got Dried mangoes on one end and then we've Got this sour natural sour blue Raspberry dust that you lick the mango You dip it in and you yes there was a um When I was a kid there was like a stick That was sugar what was it called Fun Dip yeah and funp was our inspiration For it yeah yeah fun dip was the most Disgusting stunt candy as when we were Kids I think next to Big League Chew Y Which was designed to look like chewing Tobacco for kids I don't know if they
Still permit that one but you take they Do you would take this dipping stick you Lick it and you put it in pure sugar and My mom who's a nurse uh Hey Mom was Absolutely flabbergasted that like this Even existed in the market that you Could dip a sugar stick into sugar and Chemicals but here this is great A nice Mango slice and you put in something I Feel fine with that that's like a if I'm Going to have my kids get a little sugar That seems like the best way to do it Totally all right so we got packaging we Got coming up with original recipes Making them BF you better for you all This fascinating to me Most Fascinating Though however is watching my friend Jimmy who does Feasta bues uh which are All over my house because I have Daughters who like Mr Jimmy is Challenging existing chocolate companies And I think doing quite well and I think The the key piece of this is he has free Distribution he can talk about febles And not pay for advertising and because Of the stunt nature of what you created Brilliantly here with the different Levels and people interacting and buying The box and parents feeling good about It being bfu hey people like to record Themselves doing these things and in Emulating say hot ones or the one chip Challenge which famously you can watch The video of Shaquille O'Neal eat it I
Guess on NBA TNT and like I mean that I Did it with Phil helth the poker player You can look that one up online where he Ate it and then like Chas me around the Studio and he was like really had a hard Time with it let's talk about how you Get a social media Trend starting and How to do that authentically Etc or not Authentically and you know using paid or You influencer Partners to get it going So we are social strategy is basically Kind of twofold one uh so early days I Brought on a co-founder this guy named London lazerson who is a Creator he's a Director um and he and I basically write And then he produces like a onepage Script like a one minute long narrative Probably three or four per month that we Post out onto socials and these are like Some of these learnings we got from Liquid death but it's like we want to Control the narrative and create really Engaging content and some of that stuff Takes off so like probably one out of Four videos goes viral we've got ones That have had like 40 million views Organic on YouTube um the one we Released uh a week or two ago is is up At 9 million views so that's like our Kind of controlled storytelling aspect Got it the other piece is basically just You know getting our product out there And letting people do their own version Of the one chip challenge um or the hot
Ones podcast and that's playing out on Tik Tok right now leveraging Tik Tok Shop which has been like a big driver of Growth for us over the last couple Months okay so Tik Tock shop I noticed You have like people you subscribe to You have your for you page where they Give you algorithms and in between There's a shop once in a while I'll Swipe by one of somebody I'm subscribed To or just a random video chowing and The person's talking about my favorite Brand of electronics anchor and K which Makes like battery packs and my plug I Buy everything they do and I guess the Algorithm knows I like that and I'll Just see some influencer talking about How much they love some Anor product and It says that they get paid in the Partnership so explain to people who Have never uh experienced this how is This different than buying ads on Google Buying ads on Amazon which is a big you Know shopping cart Place uh to buy ads And different than affiliate marketing What what is this new stores combined With Tik toks and influencers yeah I Mean of those that you mentioned the Closest is affiliate marketing So so we call these individuals I think Tik Tok calls them Affiliates and so we build a little Momentum organically on our own channel We get people reaching out because our
Product is interesting right it creates Interesting kind of branded product Content they reach out to us we approve Them we send them samples they make Their video and oftentimes their video Will go viral and then they get a Commission on all sales from their video So their video is linked to a product at The bottom you'll see on on your feed There'll be a little product a buy Button at the bottom right um so that Drives is it working or people buying on Tik Tok it's working for us yes working Incredibly well yeah so this concept of Social shopping people were anticipating This for a long time yes um and it it Never really happened I I remember I was On the board of this next and uh they Were doing social shopping and then you Had um of course Pinterest which had a Social shopping element to it where you Could pin something and then buy it lots Of house I guess for housing uh you know For interior decorating had a bit of This but it never really worked is it Working today yeah it's working I I Think Tik Tok finally cracked it and I Agree with you I followed all these I Got excited about all of them for years We've heard you know this is a big thing In Asia this live selling video selling Never arrived here Tik Tok I think Cracked the code and I think it has Something to do with their algorithm and
Also just the fact that the other stuff On Tik Tok is so engaging right so People are are going on Tik Tok they're Seeing the entertainment and they're Working in these these videos these Shopable videos and in our case those Videos are you know arguably as Entertaining as some of the other you Know kind of Tik Tok videos and it's Working in um the shopping experience in A very slick organic way it's only a Couple Taps of your phone and you've got The product kind of coming to you got it I'm really bullish on the way that Tik Tok has done it I think the other Networks Will Follow That kind of form Like Instagram YouTube You know Twitter perhaps yeah they could Have some of this kind of functionality I know Instagram had shops hey startups I want you to take a second and picture The ultimate Allstar team for your Business okay you got that image maybe It's the Avengers or the X-Men maybe It's the dream team in the NBA but let's Be real until you've raised your series A maybe your series B you're going to Need help to build this a team and That's why you need Dev Squad they will Get you a complete product team loaded With top tier Talent straight from Latin America your specialized team is going To consist of two to six full stack Developers a technical product manager
Along with specialists in product Strategy UI ux design devops you know All that good stuff as well as quality Assurance so you will be all synced up And you're going to be on the same time Zone and not only are you going to be on The same time zone it's going to cost You 75% less than the equivalent team in The United States with Dev Squad you're Looking at seamless collaboration and The flexibility of monthly payments Without any long-term commitments so are You ready to build your team of Superheroes we'll head right over to Dev Squad.com twist go to Dev squad.com Twiist and stag an exclusive 10% off Your engagement that's Dev squad.com Twist and transform your startup with The allstar team you deserve if we call This Home Shopping Network 2.0 where you Know you're is that what it is yeah so It's who was the person who used to do That there was um there were a couple of Celebrities who just were known for Doing oh you know what it was uh Joan Rivers I think was known for doing home Shopping club in the new show hacks Which is about a female comedian who you Know kind of came up in the 60s or 50s 60s 7s kind of time period she's known For on the show H have you seen the show Hacks on HBO no I haven't wonderful show Just two female leads a young comedian Who's like a millennial or jenz and then
Like a boomer and you know one's writing Jokes for the other and she's trying to Make a comeback but she she's kind of Joan riveness and she's she go was on to Sell her jewelry on Home Shopping Network and and that's how she's Fabulously wealthy so she took this Comedian career but then turned it into A juggernaut so I suppose this is what Could happen on social media people Could turn these things into juggernauts Um and it would be really super Interesting yeah yeah uh so what's the Most money just ballpark without picking Particular creators I'm sure there's Tiers of people who make a you know a Trickle and it's just some you know Uber Eats money in their pocket or some Uber Money in their pocket then you got mid Tier that maybe it's a car payment and Then you might have people who are the Whales in the system who hey this is Like a mortgage payment you know or a Salary so tell me about you know those Last two groups the people who are Making a car payment based on it and Then people who maybe are you know Making a salary from this or more does That exist or no it totally exists I Mean it has to like like some of our top Affiliates I feel like we've paid them Maybe $10,000 even like when their video Goes viral you know they they collect um Could be thousands of dollars from one
Video exactly exactly um and it's Affiliate fees tend to be five or 10% Something in that range in the food Space yeah about 10% probably okay um And so we have a decent margin on this Business I think and these are direct Sales so it's not like it's going Through Walmart or Target or Amazon so Let's you know turn over the next card Here what do you think the future of Commerce here is you being at Target Being on Amazon and having them take I Think a more sizable cut or influencers Basically playing the role of Target or Amazon yeah I mean the ladder is Actually you know super interesting Obviously right because you you'd love To pay the people who are direct selling I think that you know at some point in Our category of sour candy or sour Snacks or overall healthy snacking I Think retail is going to play a role but Right now we are exclusively online and We're gr exclusively online and we want To stay there until we hit this like Kind of swell of awareness that we think You know will then support our a growth To be a little more on the channel but Yeah I mean I I I'm very bullish on on Live selling and and this kind of Affiliate video video selling so correct Me if I'm wrong if if I'm understanding Or reading into the strategy a bit here Is you get some loyal fan base if you're
Were talking about politicians it would Be their base people they know are going To come out and vote for them this is Your like hardcore base Trump's got a Hardcore base you know know the the left Kamala and the Democrats they have a Hardcore base then there's like Everybody else who's y you know maybe Not paying attention you know as acutely To what's going on here you build some You know really hot coals with that base You get to I don't know a million people Consuming this product then somebody Like a Walmart or Target when you have a Discussion with them it's a different Discussion they're asking you to be on The shelves as opposed to you saying put Us on the shelves am I correct in the Strategy here yep that's it I mean I Think there's twofold there's the Hardcore fans Who you know day one once we're in Walmart or Target we could send an email And say hey go to the store today and Blow this out right like and that's That's their Holy Grail because then We're actually bringing them Shoppers oh Wow because you have their email Addresses and you have their addresses You could put something in there hey We're going to be here and then they Were rallied to support you which I Think happened with febles right like Yes there were fans going there like
Cleaning up the the aisle where it was And like reorganizing the candy so it Looked better in addition to buying bars Cuz Jimmy told them hey you know support Me absolutely and then the second tier Is just like this kind of swell of Awareness that comes with that kind of Scale so that when someone is walking Through the aisles of Walmart or Target And they see our product they're like oh Yeah that's the Tik Tok challenge like I I'm going to add that right so you want To have bring both those elements so you Really nail a retail launch tell me About retailers today I was talking to Peter fam and I was talking to Mike Jones Mike Jones spoke at my last Conference the liquidity Summit up and Napa and he was you know talking a Little bit about how you know the Retailers uh were looking in many Different categories for some excitement And that like you know maybe things had Maybe gotten a little bit stale are you Too exciting and too complex for them to To Gro he was joking that like the big Innovation in cereal for example was Instead of buying like an extra large Box or two boxes taped together they Were like using dog food bags to put Cereal in and people were going now to Walmart and buying a dog food bag size Like you like a 50 lb bag of rice size Uh Frosted Flakes or something and I was
Like well that's interesting like I Guess like 10 boxes of cereal in one Okay it's really terrible for you but of Sugar in your system probably not a good Idea but okay do they understand what You're doing and and talk maybe a little Bit about retail and how retail is Changing or not changing or you know Experiential stuff in retail yeah how do You think about it yeah um so I think That we are Probably ahead your point of like the The level of innovation right so we we Do a lot of Storytelling online you Can't do that much storytelling in Retail but if we start building this Awareness through social people will get Kind of glimmers of the of the story and Then they'll kind of finish their Journey in retail right so that's that's How we view it I don't think anyone is Going to stop in their tracks with their Shopping cart at Walmart you know open Our box read the whole story and Discover you know go through the whole Funnel of acquisition in the retail Store right we got to do that Storytelling on our end um and we got to Generate that awareness so then the Store just becomes like the bottom of The funnel the last kind of place of Distribution got it so there's not like Super Innovation going on there you're Just basically trying to be more
Interesting than everything else on Either side of the aisle and maybe you Bring customers to the table which is You know maybe the opposite of how most Cpg interacts with Walmart which is They're in just some back room trying to Strike a deal based on economics as Opposed to striking a deal based on hey We're bringing you we're going to bring People into the store that's a much Different conversation you know it's Like I'm G to have a conference in Vegas Like I know we're we're going to do an All-in Poker series chat's you know been Planning he's talked about it a little Bit and like if you bring a th000 poker Players or 10,000 poker players or even More well you're bringing those people Into you know whatever Casino it is Whatever Hotel you know there's going to Be some splashy cashy you know they're Going to buy other things when they're There so if you do bring the sour boss Uh you know fin a ball sour there you Know that's going to be totally they Might buy some other things while They're there uh stupid question you use The video game metaphor are you going to Make a casual video game that's somehow Related to this we had this like Incredible moment in time in our Childhood where you know Dungeons and Dragons was a board game became a seral Became a cartoon and this like forget
About Omni Channel but Omni media and Obviously Star Wars being the best Example of a media company you know Making their money off toys and then Eventually video games and all kinds of Spin-offs so you g to make a video game And and how do you think about you know IP development if at all it's possible I Mean all of our IP is is original and Owned um so I worked so to create this Brand I worked with a video game design Company out of Eastern Europe right Interesting so didn't do didn't work With any cpg designers went out out of The box to find find them oh how clever They also develop games and so it is Our Intention that at some point we'll do Something uh we're we're starting with a Little like a little casual game that's Going to involve like scanning a QR code That you get from a Tik Tock box and you Know so we'll start small with these Little pieces but yeah I mean we built The brand as if it were like a full you Know kind of Super Mario Brothers type Game I don't know if we'll ever get There well I have an idea there like What if when if you to play the game if You take a picture of level one two and Three you unlock levels 1 two and three In the game yep then if you beat levels One two and three you unlock level four And level but you have to beat the video Game in order to order level four sour
Totally that could be super interesting Uh could get people working for level Four as it were absolutely cuz level Four doesn't exist right now right like Level four is in the laboratory Somewhere level four is in the Laboratory level four and the final boss Level are both are both being worked on I think this would be like a very Interesting competition TV show like Actually to do a straight up hot one Style you know YouTube challenge where You bring 10 kids and family members Together to just see who Taps out level Four five or six is there like a a level Of sour that people cannot handle like There is with peppers and like the ghost Pepper and everything a little bit I Mean if you go too deep like you know One of our employees was doing a a Tik Tok live and everyone was just daring Him to eat more and more product and so He ate like he took down like 20 bags And so a little bit of tongue burn Afterwards last day or so it's nothing Serious that you know a little milk and A couple days of rest would won't won't Cure for you yeah but yeah I I think it It's very personal people have different Tolerance levels I can handle pretty Pretty heavy I think Jelly Belly did a Really interesting job every time my Daughters go to the Jelly Belly factory Which is outside of San Francisco you
Can actually tour it and everything they Have a of disgusting Flavors I can't remember what they are But it's so rancid that my daughters Think they're little pranksters now my 8-year-olds and they will take the Really disgusting ones and put it in the Fruity ones I like and give me them and Pretend it's green apple and then I'm Eating something that's like dead Cockroach flavor and it's just Absolutely and they get a real kick out Of it so there's so many brand Extensions you could do here and I like The side quest for the dips so you can Really start figuring out and be Innovative in terms of making all this Stuff it's much easier with like um what Do they call co-packers or something There's like a whole infrastructure Level that we could equate to like say Amazon web services in terms of Y you Figure out the formula in your Laboratory and then the co-packers do it Or do the co-packers have the Laboratories where they can pop up like An experiment from you explain that Level of the infrastructure that I think Probably most of us don't understand yes So in general cpg you work with a Third-party formulator and a third party Co-packer I've been in my experience Kind of burned with that setup because You end up with a product that you don't
Really like you don't really control the Negotiation and so when we started we Started doing it ourselves so we uh for The first month or two we we launched About a year ago in in last October we Were in a shared kitchen in la oh Building the product ourselves tinkering With the recipes we really kind of Nailed the product ourselves then when We got too big we then worked with a CO Packer but we uh at that point you know Knew exactly what we were doing we knew Exactly how how we wanted it built we Were the formulators it was it felt much More natural and we found a great cop Packer um to to produce for us so right Now how it works is uh we have a C- Packer in North Carolina who does all Our products for us we still do all the Formulating we still do all the um kind Of product design ourselves which is Like the IP you probably don't want Other people you know for higher Labs Doing it because then once they Formulate it and they get insights now They can go sell it to a competitor or Knockof brand yes which I think exists In cpg as well so it's kind of like Making Electronics I watch that happen In electronics all the time you hire Somebody in Shenzhen to make something Unique for you like a smoke detector and All of a sudden there's four knockoffs That their cousins are making yep and
There's always a legal discussion who Owns what and it yeah it's it's Troubling so you just get your pop up a Ghost kitchen and you you just get in The lab literally get in the laboratory And make cool stuff I'm super excited to Go on this uh Journey with your team Yeah we're super excited to have you I'm Hoping I can like get into this I want To do some of these with my kids online And great uh I want to do some Tik toks And so I'll put it on my Tik Tok and uh Maybe I I you know I got uh uh one of The nut groups uh that makes nuts this Great macademia nut group made like All-in spicy nuts based on uh yeah based On the all-in crew and just think it's Like really interesting how Brands can Like incorporate influencers So you could literally if you had one of These influencers do really well as a Partner and affiliate you could Literally make a short run thousand Collectible based on you know Jake C's Sour you know whatever I'm you know into Kiwi whatever and it could be like That's just mine I it's Jake House's Kiwis and it's super sour kiwi we're Going to sell a thousand of them and Whatever they're collectible just love That have you ever thought about putting Prices into Captain jacking uh C what Was it Captain uh uh frunch no no no no Um crackerjack crackerjack you
Everything about crackerjack and when I Was a kid I was enamored of getting like Tattoos and you know little airplanes And you know it was literally a 10- cent Thing inside of there but I didn't Notice that there was no uh you know Action figure as it were have you Thought about that little prize in there We've thought about it right now we're Thinking about it more from a digital Perspective so a like the like I said The QR code to the game is is the is the Prize um but yeah and we thought about Like you know kind of golden ticket kind Of raffle aspects too which are super Fun I think that these things you know Two of the great if you look at all the Um Studios I was speaking to somebody Who worked at one of the studios I Wouldn't say who but it was like hey What's the difference between like Paramount Studios and this studio and Disney and Universal and I was like IP And he's like close and I'm like theme Parks he's like yep and so it turns out Like experiencing things in person is Really interesting for people I think There's like um something called milk Bar is that the candy experience you go To where they candy and stuff like that Maybe uh yeah there's like Anyway there I noticed like when I was at Universal There was like a candy store that was Kind of experiential have you thought
About that like the in-person Experiential thing like either they're Testing a popup where people come and Make their own fruits in a lab with Their own Cy profiles or something I Know my kids if you had like a little Popup store somewhere it would be a Destination for them like the Jelly Belly factories is so have you thought About that retail yeah popups and Experiences totally I mean like when we Whenever we do like a trade show or or If we do it inperson events it really Becomes like kind of part game show part Kind of experience where people are Challenging each other to go across the Levels and like that that kind of Experience when you've done that it Really to your point like unlocks a Different level of loyalty um to the Brand uh so yeah we we we do that stuff All the time and as we grow I think We'll we'll formalize a better plan Around it yeah I think like doing an Interesting popup at like you know There's this thing VidCon which is like For all the YouTubers and stuff like That doing a uh final boss sour popup Outside of that like even if you did Went you know punk rock and just had Like a a food truck or something like in The area and people could come up and Challenge themselves or if even you did It like in the place where people were
Challenging each other and sitting Across from each other wow it could be Really interesting so continue success I Think it's really awesome what you're Doing and just type final boss sour into Tik Tok and just go check out all the Excitement around the brand and I'm Guessing there's a website as well yeah People can go to yep s.com just probably For your kids it's like really Interesting they'll get a lot of fun out Of it and it's uh it's bfu better for You absolutely all right we'll see you All next time on this week service Bye-bye all right listen you remember FTX the fail crypto exchange it has to Pay out 12.7 billion to users who lost Their shirts when it folded I learned All about FTX paying people back thanks To my subscription to The Washington Post it's an amazing publication you Know all of their great national news Coverage you know politics obviously It's in Washington but you know what They do a great job on Tech and business They crush it it's for you newsletter is A daily personalized Roundup of the Stories that you care about most and They've got great reporters like Drew Harwell going deep on AI The Washington Post is going to help you broaden your Perspective you're going to get really Smart going deep on the Technologies and Topics that you care about and you know
What I'm an audio lover you can listen To the articles there in addition to Reading them which is great for me when I'm driving or working and I want to Have something on in the background or I'm on the treadmill so here's your call To action with the election rapidly Approaching now is the time to sign up For the Washington Post go to Washingtonpost.com twist to subscribe For just 50 cents per week for the first Year $26 a year what a deal that's 80% Better than their typical offer so This Truly is a steal they want to get young People and Technology people Understanding how great their coverage Is washingtonpost.com TST go ahead and support them for Supporting this weekend startups and get All that great content in your email box On your phone subscribe 50 cents per Week washingtonpost.com twist all right Everybody welcome back to this week in Startups really excited to have our next Guest on Ray Lambert is the CEO and Co-founder of river it's a great origin Story which we'll hear about today Because she uh became a fan Ray did of The all-in podcast and she started doing Meetups with fans and when we had our First Allin in Summit in Miami she said Hey um I'm doing like a meet up with 10 Folks uh all the women coming to the Event we're having a brunch um would you
Like to swing by and uh I was like okay That's across the street from my hotel So you're stalking me of course I will Stop by and uh that's how this all got Started we have been using uh the river Platform which has essentially Productize these all-in meetups to do Our founder Friday meetups founder Fridays. Tech is the domain for that and Um you know the concept is there's a lot Of digital communities um or digital Products that have communities forming But there's no way for them to get Together so Ry and her team's vision is To build that platform it's called River And they attended the launch accelerator 30th class we made a small investment in The firm and uh you know we're going to Continue investing and pulling the String and see where this takes us Welcome to the program Ray Lambert Thanks for having me so um tell us The um sort of insight you had into Community um and how you know this has Manifested itself into a product so how Do you take this organic you know hey We're doing some meetups we got a Mailing list we got a form online and You know we got a location and you know We tweeted it and then making that into A product that a bunch of Brands like This weekend startups Allin I believe The blueprint guy I think bology and his Nation state is using it and I know my
First million really cool podcast um They have been using it so so tell us How you take this like weird energy that Exists in the world and then productize It yeah my initial first reason for Doing all in meetups I had moved to Miami and was kind of disappointed with The tech scene there just huge rager Parties that just didn't feel Ive I Wasn't really meeting Builders and uh I had been to the summit Loved everyone I met there I'm like let Me try to meet more of those people and It turns out just generic meetups They're just you don't have enough kind Of in common when you go to a typical Tech Meetup or some other like generic Event and so when people come to an All-in Meetup or they come to a Twist Event they just they like finally have Met their people and so there's this Kind of magic like cathartic experience That people have and like kind of like The weirder more lunatick the topic the Better um you know when I hosted a Brian Johnson don't die event in Boston the 30 People who show were like oh my God I Did not know there were 30 vegans who go To bed at 9:00 p.m. in this town so that Was kind of like one feeling one insight And then another one was that people Were totally willing to step up and host And make it happen in their City a lot Of investors or customers like well
Where do I find host I'm like nope the Other problem is how do you let hosts Down nicely who aren't the right fit Because I get like hate mail once a week From someone who's been rejected I think That was my insight was you know when You were doing the all-in meetups I was Like I don't want weirdos using meetups As a way to siphon off the community the Alling community to get customers or Clients for their Consulting business no Offense to lawyers accountants Recruiters and all these great people Totally try to do that but I don't want My Brands hijacked to do their BD Because by the way we have sponsorship And we have advertising on this weekend Startups like there is a channel for That I don't want some Law Firm Subverting my partnership with Wilson Sinini in order to you know uh do some Local meet up with Founders and then get Their next 10 clients because have a Product that does that with Wilson Cini yeah and the the great hosts who Just actually want to just build a Community in their city like they don't Care they're not trying to do business Development you know it's always the Service provider who's pissed at Mez They're like wait I don't get the emails I'm like no you do not well and this was The key thing you know I said to you I Want to invest in building this
Community for this week in startups and For Allin um and you know I I want to Have a purpose so there was a really Good book on community the Purpose-driven Church um by Rick Warren he had done a TED Talk at some point he said listen Each church needs to have one thing they Do not 10 things they do there has to be Some purpose for this and once you have A purpose you know people can buy into It or not buy into it and the purpose For founder fridays. Tech which you can Go see and you can find it on the river Platform as well was I Wanted Founders to meet with other Founders and help each other uh you know With their business challenges that's it Pretty simple you know Founders helping Founders for Founders by Founders I Think is the way I framed it yeah and You know anything that's not that dist Racts from the mission and distracts From the purpose in Rick Warren's sort Of goal I actually read that book it's a Book from 1995 and I think it's um you Know if you get past the religious Overtones if you're not into that you Can kind of see the Brilliance of Focused religions are so good at getting Together Community they have real estate That they go to they have consistency Where they get together at least once a Week they have common rituals that they
Can all like get to know and understand They're very good at Community I mean The Catholic church is like they're like Geniuses all right so that's the Purpose Driven Church The Purpose Driven Life Tell me about the software platform what Does it do today and then what are the Components that are not software that Need to be done manually in building a Community and then we'll get into Community best practices but you you had A I think an acute list of problems or Challenges that Brands you know and this Is kind of like tedex in a way in a box Is one of the ways I said it to you at Some point but you know running these Meetups God there's so many challenges And you have to prioritize them so walk Us through like what are the three or Four most important things that you've Solved for with technology yeah and I Tried all the event platforms when I was Growing all in meetups to 50 cities Around the world and it just like Instantly feel the pain so one thing we Do really well is you create an event Template and then you can duplicate that Across every city around the world just A couple of clicks instantly and it will Snap it to the location the right time Zone it'll bring in the title of the City into the event and the image of the City and so as opposed to creating one Individual event across 50 cities just
Do that in a few clicks like people Might do that on an event bride or Something so now they've got 50 events In 50 cities maybe they have 50 Logins 50 times yeah and then we also Have batch editing so it's like an event Campaign Series so you can say hey every Event that has this word in the title or Is in this date range or has this tag I Decided I'm going to rename them all and Instead of going into every event you Can just batch edit and then the events Once they get listed on your community Page like this week in startups on our River Community page the events are Geolocated so the nearest event to their IP address shows up on top and so Instead of having to promote you know Hey here's the Singapore Meetup and then In another tweet here's the London Meetup you just say hey go to the Community page on River the thing that's On top is the one nearest to you and you Can just go to that once you click on an Event you can either RSVP and then it's Just like a normal event app or you can Apply to host and this is where the kind Of real power of river comes in if you Apply to host you get dropped into a Lightweight applicant tracking system Almost kind of like when you apply for a Job much light much lighter weight than That and Community manager can look who Is this person what are The Vibes you
Click on their social have they hosted Past events do they have a good host Rating um and you can approve reject um Once you approve them they take over Limited edit access for the event and so They can say hey this is the venue this Is how much room there is actually I'm Going to have it at 6:30 um they can Send messages to attendees but they Can't get access to their email or phone Number so they really have everything They need to make a great event happen Under your banner and your brand without Being able to take attendee data or Delete critical information got it uh And you when you think about community And this distributed Community I saw you Did something for Tim Ferris um he had anniversary his 10th Anniversary of his podcast um so there Is some manual work that needs to be Done here by a human like vetting the Hosts or answering questions or customer Support so tell me about the best Practices that you've learned in the Past year on Community yeah so every Community is Different um and this is why it's been a Little hard to automate I mean one of my Co-founders is a fantastic data Scientists and we will bring in more Machine learning over time but each Community is different so we have salana And super team Community web 3
Communities they don't want their name Or their head shot in their bio they're Very like Anon accounts whereas the Tim Ferris Community is just like a lot a Slightly older crowd um like more kind Of Web 2.0 the way you expect so we Usually do either us we'll do it for our Client our customers or they will that Um poost themselves honestly you can Kind of thin slice it and make a pretty Good decision and 30 to 60 seconds um we Each Community can require okay I really Want this person to include their LinkedIn or I need a head shot or I need A bio um so for founder Fridays for Example like if it's not explicit that If it doesn't seem like they're actually Building a startup right now then they Don't get approved um so each Community Is kind of different and that's where That's where a lot of manual work comes In now the nice thing is is once we've Activated a community it gets much Faster so You know they host their first event They get feedback a rating okay now They're a great host they're they can Become a pre-approved host and that just Happens a lot faster so the it is kind Of like frontend work and then the other Thing just on the manual side a lot of People have never done any kind of Events like this is very different like When Tim Ferris did his 10th anniversary
Meetups did 150 events around the world And all simultaneously and so it's it's Less about a big conference or one day Huge attendee and it's more about Organic 10 20 30 person events and this Just like designing the programming for This or like setting the intention Setting the vibe is just uh something That our clients like need help with so We usually just design partner with them Like many great startups you know you're I think creating a new category um there Are things that are analogous why po Young Presidents organization has Chapters um there are multi-level Marketing companies that do like Localy kind of you know things where They pressure each other into spying From each other and you know have Multi-level marketing works you have Tedex uh which was really interesting Hey not everybody can come to Ted it's Super Elite it's super expensive 10 15K A year 20K a year depending on what Package you're on but you could do Something locally in your community Causes all kinds of problems because Somebody will come and say something Stupid out a local event and then it Blows back to Ted and they have to like Work on it but let's put all that aside This is a new category and then of Course you know the motivations and can It be a business uh eventually emerges
When you get to year two or three of This so like eBay it was or Craigslist You know it's just a passion right like I I I I'm into Pez dispensers I'm into Bob dylian memorabilia I want to get the Set list from a bob Dyan concert it's Not really about Commerce but then or Etsy the way it started but then all of A sudden like people become professional Etsy they become professional at Airbnb I feel like that's starting to happen Here in I think we're in year two of Riverb uh or in that sort of time frame And I know I'm thinking about it as what Is the is there a business here is there Monetization uh or a business model here That would accelerate it or is it just a Passion project so walk me through what You're discovering in terms of emergent Behavior From your partners who are paying you Know a small amount of money for the Platform I think it's a couple hundred Bucks a month it's not super expensive 500 a month so it's not super expensive Um and it solves so many problems that The 500 a month is really easily worth It for me um to not have to do the Duplication and all that stuff you're Talking about but what's the big picture Here has somebody figured out like this Is going to become YPO yet or there's Sponsorship ability or it grows a Mailing list to the point in which you
Can sell them and upsell them other Things what's happening in emerging Behavior in in the Ecosystem yeah so we have the beginnings Of a sponsorship Marketplace and this is Really interesting like found money for Community so when salana Foundation did Their kickoff for their meetups um just Like you could apply to host there's Little apply to sponsor button and 30 Out of 50 so 60% of events got a sponsor Now this is like time this is so much Time uh and it's so you know most Marketers or big Brands know that events Have a really high torque on being like A great Channel 80% of brands do event Marketing of some kind just extremely Labor intensive and not easy to scale um But then you have you know like this Weekend startups I'm sure your ad raids Are pretty expensive and maybe someone Can't afford that but they'd love to Host the local Austin this weekend Startup founder Friday's Meetup so this Is kind of like easy found money there And then for a lot of our communities They don't have an email list they don't Have an email strategy I mean for Allin You guys aren't doing emails so the 9,000 emails you have are from people Attending events and so now you have This email strategy and this data Strategy the sponsorship Marketplace and Then eventually I think river is going
To become like an ad Network where just Like someone saying hey you know like a Google ad I want to spend $1,000 a week On this type of ICP they could say I Want to spend $1,000 a week to support Meetups under these certain communities And that could just be automated on the Platform so we'll be doing that so I Could turn that on right now for founder Fridays the sponsorship Piece you could turn on the apply to Sponsor and then we kind of sneaker Feature it I would say we're about 3 Weeks away from really releasing like The inapp purchase you know we want to Be like uber where you can just purchase It and then you know some Brands they Need to be approved by this weekend Startups because you don't want to Associate with with lunatics but um they Once they're approved they can just Inapp buy I would do that I would just Say um $500 you could sponsor it and I Would give I don't know 70% of that to The local hosts to buy food and drinks And then 30% to the Mothership for you Know our time managing the program Because we actually hired somebody half Time as you know to man yeah and so we Have a community manager now and I'm Making that investment just because I Want to meet the host and we did our First host meet up I think you were There uh where I got on a zoom call and
I was like this is amazing you know this Is working for me on so many different Levels and I I hate to even talk about It because I don't want to give other People this like secret weapon I'm Building but uh for me to know who are The people in each City who opted in to Host an event with our brand who are Founders means those are really good Founders those are savy founders I might Want to invest in and they started Telling me about their companies I was Like whoa this is a this is like premium Deal flow and then if they are Monitoring they're almost like Scouts For me like the scoa scouts program Where I started my investment career They're kind of scouting the local Market they could tell me hey this Founder is legit they're doing Interesting stuff so now I'm looking at Like wait a second deal flow here and I Like the idea of like a little bit of Splashy cashy money going back to them For what I'll call Uber money like Pocket Change you know take their Uber You know pay for their $50 Uber to and From the eventt and pay for the first Round of drinks or some chicken wings so Yeah kind of and I would be okay with Your team taking a percentage as well so If you told us you know to turn on the Sponsor feature it's you know part of Your
$500 a month um if we uh and we take 10% But if you pay $1,000 a month we take Just the 3% processing fee or whatever You know there's some model there where I would be okay with you actually having An ad Network and if you sold Tim Ferris My first million and this weekend Startups in a bundle for $500 an event Or $1,000 an event or $50 per person Coming to the event I would be like yeah I don't care it's not the reason I'm Doing it exactly so I really really Interesting is a live model based on Them and then they could opt into when They go to the event getting more Information from that sponsor yep that One's working and then another one where Have a design partner for is um paid Events where and I I don't want to Release too much CU they haven't fully Launched yet but um they're doing their Own paid events in New York City it's a Total Vibe it's going viral people are Doing it a lot in New York and they want To expand to other cities but they want To control the revenue line and they Want to control the brand and so they're Going to be rolling out with River and The host just like we were talking about Will get a revenue share from the paid Event so instead of a sponsor it's just PID event um and that's going to help Them scale 10 times faster than if they Had to go interview and Source the host
Themselves yeah see for the founder Friday events I like this small intimacy But I was thinking there's a lot of People who want to come so maybe we do Like a two-tier thing where when you Have a Founder Friday you you have People who are members who come to that Small eight person Sixers pods and talk About their business and then it opens Up to a generalized cocktail party and Then you could just sell tickets to Cocktail party anybody can come a lawyer An accountant whatever and those are Just 50 Buck tickets anybody can come And then we just S A Local Host you take 25 bucks we take 25 bucks call it a day Yeah love that yep yeah um super Interesting so uh what do you think Ultimately you know with all this Learning the business becomes what what Do you think you thinking ad Network or There's just it's kind of like a Marketplace like Etsy or something What's the analogy here because it Doesn't fit into a box I wish it did it Would make my financial modeling much Easier um yeah we start with B2B SAS Like pricing subscription model because That's just the easiest um rolling out The sponsorship Marketplace but we're Also rolling out like other contribution Marketplaces so people want to apply to Speak or they want to be a photographer Or they want to help check in and so
Right now we kind of Orient everything Around the role of the host but the host Will be able to drag and drop and say Hey here's some other roles I want People to sign up for um and so I can See that's brilliant So I could say we have the hosts there's Three co-hosts in the city we don't have An official social media photographer And we don't have a front desk person Volunteer for those two roles yeah oh That's so great and then same for Speakers everyone's always looking for If they're hosting a more programmed Event they're looking for speakers and So then it's really just pulled from Your own personal Network where you know We sent out like a test email to a Thousand of our users to see how many People are interested in speaking and Like a 100 people are like me I want to Speak which is crazy and so you could Have like a speaker profile basically on A river with speaker ratings you know Okay this person's really good at Talking about this topic in AI this Person can talk about fundraising and You can start kind of getting notified Of when events are coming up so really We want to be you know there's lots of Event listing platform you know tools That are just like hey your event but we Really want to help you you know find a Sponsor find a venue find a programming
And just like pull off a really great Event um without really having to do Much work at all so it'll be a real Marketplace yeah yeah I I have a feeling You know what you have here is a powder Keg um and just watching the impact it's Having on my two Brands Allin getting to 9,000 emails those emails are worth Conservatively $10 each so I would say $90,000 in value has been created if it Goes to 20,000 you know now you got $200,000 in value because if but 1% of Those people buys the you know all-in Tequila that sax is working on or 1% buy A ticket to the all-in summit you know These are high ticket value items so wow You know those the top I would say the Top 10% actually are probably well Healed um like seriously well healed Like CEOs who could buy a $7500 take Yeah for that brand and so now you look At that you know that's you know 900 People who can afford you know a $10,000 Ticket or something like now you're Talking about real value now that's $10 Million in ticket sales that could be Potentially unlocked uh and then on the This weekend startup side well we find The next Uber Robin Hood Comm in that Mix but one time in 10 years and if we Invest 50,000 a year you know over 10 Years that's $500,000 If we were to hit another Uber Ren you Know pick a company you know these
Things can be worth 50 100 $250 million In returns for the fund so you know These Investments are really easy for us To make I think yeah for sure for sure And how we do this I also think like for Other creators you know because not Everyone's selling an expensive Conference ticket or investing in Startups but you know with generative AI There's just so much content has become A commodity there's so much crap that's Being created and I think I call them Cold creators people who just like put Content online and then they don't Engage in any way you know as consumers Like how many podcasts are we listening To how many newsletters are we listening To so it's a really interesting way to Like engage with your top true fans and Like Inspire more loyalty like I hear People all the time when they come to an All in meet up they're like oh I had to Make sure I listen to the episode before I came in case someone said something Somebody ask me a question and what's my Opinion right which besie do I agree With disagree with yeah so brilliant Exactly so it's almost like if you're a Brand and you don't have this you're not Really connecting with that top 1 to 10% Of your audience I think that's super Brilliant listen continued success with This um I'm super excited that you Decided to do this I know you had a
Vibrant Consulting business I tried to Hire you I was like this is going to be Huge and then in I had the inability to Hire you because you're so independent And strong that I said well can I just Give you $100,000 to see if this crazy Idea works out and here we are and well I mean amazing how you have gotten the Tim Ferris is my first million and I Know the my first million team did Something called Hamilton or something What's the name of their Hampton is Their group um they have a Founder group Called Hampton and one of my Founders Joined it it's like $7,500 a year or something or 5,000 or 10,000 I can't remember what the number Was it was a lot of money and I think It's got hundreds of people maybe a Thousand people in this now so if it's $10,000 he's got a th000 people doing It's a$1 million a year Community like YPO and so I you know there's something There where I think people like Soho House kind of high-end memberships would Want to do this so I'm also looking at That really fascinated as to what that Could become for sure yeah awesome Continued success I'm so proud of you And the team you have worked so hard and My Lord you know when I every time I Talk to your team and you know we're in The the founder Slack and I see the Next high-profile community that you
Engage with it's just amazing and you Know I see that with podcast AI as well Um there are something about yeah the The companies that can Land the lighthouse customers so I don't Want to say easily but who can land them And it's hard to land them because They're busy and they get so much Inbound that like a Tim Ferris is Notorious for and he's a friend of mine Like you know he he's a less is more guy Like I don't want to any distraction in My life I'm just doing like something Really essential and then taking all Back all my time to actually get someone Like that to engage is incredibly hard And that's what's most impressive about You as an executive is your ability to You know get that you know you get Someone like Brian Johnson you get Tim Ferris it's just so hard to do so you Know I think it's your superpower as an Executive and continued success and We'll see you all next time on this week Stars bye bye
