We have a vision for what an internet Financial system can look like we have a Vision for what open programmable Composable money can bring to the world And the innovation of that and the open Internet and what that makes possible And we want to make sure that that can Come to life and not be stifled and that Does require policy makers and and Governments to actually create more Degrees of freedom um for Innovation to Happen as has happened in other major Areas of the internet this weekend Startup is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs a business is only as strong as its People and every hire matters go to Linkedin.com twist to post your first Job for free terms and conditions apply Google Cloud accelerate your startup Journey with the Google for startups Cloud program get up to 200k in Google Cloud credits or up to 350k for AI Startups plus training and guidance Apply at startups dogle google.com/ Twist and beehive power your newsletters With AI tools referral programs and AD Network features all in one platform get 30 days free and 20% off your first 3 Months at beehive.org Some time now I've been covering crypto Since 2013 2014 somewhere in there back When Bitcoin was either double or triple Digits if you want to know how far back That was and a question that always come
Up is what will be the killer use case For crypto some people said store value Some people really leaned into trading I Think that the union of those two things Is the real thing that crypto is going To unlock for the world and that is Stable coins so today on the podcast we Have Jeremy air back Jeremy is the Co-founder CEO and chairman of circle Jeremy hey welcome back to the show Thank you Alex it's awesome to uh Awesome to be here excited for the Conversation yeah so before the show we Were talking about the the ancient past The 90s if you will and the era of the Internet that brought us into the 2000s Um you founded a company called air that Made cold fusion tell us about how you Took that company and ended up the CTO Of macr Media yeah absolutely so just yeah going Way back in time um just even before I Founded that company I got involved in The internet in 1990 and the thing that Got me interested in this was I Experienced firsthand the sort of power Of open networks distributed and Decentralized networks open protocols Open source software this is sort of What I like to refer to as like the DNA Of the internet and um I experienced That as I was looking at you know what Was happening with the collapse of the Soviet Union I was sort of studying that
And I I basically you know I went very Deep on technology and became convinced That like this would be transformative To the world and then in 1994 as the very first like graphical Web browser technology emerged um it Became really clear like okay we now Have like a a piece of software that you Could render content and applications And other things into um which led to This concept of sort of the web as an Application platform and so with my Brother and others we co-founded a lair Which built as you noted cold fusion and Cold fusion came out in January of 1995 and it was the first commercial web Programming language there were some Things like Pearl if you remember Pearl Um uh and like yeah and and uh people Would write C code behind web servers to Like make things into dynamic in web Browsers but cold fusion really made it Easy and accessible to anyone who had an Idea and like $ thousand dollar to build An interactive application you can Deliver through a browser and that was a Really big Concept in 1995 and that like Took off and we rodee the whole wave of Of people building websites e-commerce Bring content online um we had literally Uh in with the whole family of tools That we built out we had millions of Developers using our software and then As uh as that that market matured like
We we took the company public in early 1999 um and we were unfashionable Because we were profitable uh most Companies going public in the Doom era Were not profitable at all but um uh it Was it was it was it was good but we Were kind of an armed supplier to the Whole internet 1.0 Revolution and um and Then after we went public we merged with Macr media which was also a huge Provider of tools for building the Internet building the Web building Content and so on and I uh yeah I became The chief technology officer of that Combined company and and then helped Pioneer um the use of flash which we all Probably remember as like a very Powerful piece of software for doing Deeper forms of media Communications Interactivity um over over the Internet Um and and that was yeah that was back In 2001 so so going back quite some time I mean we outgrew flash but I do think Flash gets a bad rap in retrospect like We used it for a really long time flash Was great until we I don't know had Better stuff but I feel like there's a Lot of like um yeah Monday morning Quarterbacking about the demise of flash That I don't think is entirely fair for Kind of I know a lot about it I know a Lot about it yeah so this is a little B Of a layup for you but you know given Your conversation about the internet
Open protocols decentralization um what Brought you from the end of your time of Macromedia to 2013 when you decided that Hey we need to found Circle we need to Start working on the stable coin issue Um I I presume that there's some Ideological kind of like parallels Between those two points yeah so I mean If you go back to sort of what brought Me into the internet in the first place I was uh actually studying um International political economy I was Sort of looking at kind of comparative Economic systems political systems I was Very interested in sort of international Economic systems stuff like that I got You know excited about the internet got Excited about sort of the transformation Of of these open networks and what that Could do for information and and and Information distribution and software Distribution and that was sort of LED There and then actually it was at macr Media where you know we back in was 22 Years ago we put a a a seamless way to Play video into player in March of 2022 Or 2002 sorry um and and we basically Made like video playback ubiquitous on The internet and we we we kind of made It the the for the first time it was Like easy for anyone to like put video Into a browser and that really that led To the development of YouTube which Exploded that was all built on flash
Player video um and that also led me to Found a company Brite Cove um which Basically was taking again these Fundamental DNA of the internet open Networks open protocols distributed Systems and and my idea was well we Could basically enable any any company Any Media company to directly distribute Video and television on the internet and You know back in 2004 right we we had Just started getting Broadband we had Just started getting WiFi we didn't Really have mobile devices yet but there Were all this talk about connected Devices and it was very clear like okay I could see how like we're going to have All these connected devices we're going To have Wi-Fi and mobile broadband and And that's going to unleash video in a Way that wasn't possible so built up a Kind of online television distribution System online video platform um and and That you know that was kind of a Continuation of sort of okay there's Now New stuff you can do on the Internet It's it's richer it's Fuller it's sort Of more true to things people thought During the dot era would be possible Actually became possible in web 2 when You had these these sort of more Technology proliferation that was was Better and and that that was a very Successful business and grew and um we Ipoed uh Brave um in early 2012 so we
Sort of grew it to that point and so Here here's sort of getting to the Answer to the question which is um when The financial crisis hit in 2008 and 2009 that like significantly stimulated My earlier interests that had were my Earlier kind of academic interests and I Sort of became like an Armchair political Economist and so I Found myself reading a huge amount about The nature of money Central Banking the International monetary system the nature Of fractional Reserve banking like all This stuff I became really interested Because I was like how did this happen And and is there a Better Way Forward is There a better way to build the International monetary system and you Know it's not the kind of thing where You know you sort of wake up one day and Say I'm going to create a startup up to You know transform the international Monetary and economic system it's not You know it's not a typical thing that You just decide to do um but um so at That time 2009 you know 2010 like I Didn't do that because there wasn't a Clear path to do that it was more just I'm interested in this and then in 2012 Actually not long after I cooked bright Cove public um I I came across crypto um And went down the rabbit hole and got Very excited about the technology and I Am a technologist like a product guy and
I kind of looked at it from a technology First perspective and you know I saw Several things I was like wow this is Actually a technical breakthrough there Are problems there computer science Problems that have been solved here that Are really powerful and like the first Time I synchronized the blockchain uh The Bitcoin blockchain onto my laptop And was able to conduct a transaction Using that directly over the Internet That was like the NCSA Mosaic moment for Me it was like a oh my God this direct Infrastructure where you can safely and Provably conduct a transaction directly With a counterparty over an open- Source Protocol on the Internet it's like wow This is this is a breakthrough this is a Missing it's a fundamental missing piece Of the internet and the more that my Co-founder and I dug in the more that um And in particular into like the Technical community there were a lot of People in the technical community of Crypto back then who were really jazzed About ideas like how could you use this Tech to not just have Bitcoin but issue Other types of of now we call them Digital assets or digital tokens on These networks and you know I had built Virtual machines and and and help build Programming languages and stuff in the Past as we just talked about and so There was discussion of how could you
How could you make these these types of Digital assets programmable how could You have programmable money how could You have Smart contracts and and these Were like ideas on napkins for a lot of People there were a couple white papers And stuff but it was very clear that all Those things would happen and we could See very clearly how all those things Would happen we didn't know the exact Time frame but we knew that those would Happen and when we looked at all that And I kind of merged that with my Thinking about like how do you how do You build a safer Financial system and How do you build a more open uh Financial system all this like converged And I became basic basally it's all I Could think about totally obsessed and Obviously decided to found Circle and You know the the basic idea um and and It goes back to something we were Talking about before we started the show The B the basic idea was can we create Like an HTTP for money can we create a Protocol for dollars on the internet That is open programmable Etc that was The idea you know 101 years ago and and Now we've done it like it's here and It's happening and as as you introduced Right it's sort of killer app of of Crypto and it's and it's really starting To take off but it took a long time to To build it and but now it's quite it's
Quite a significant scale and but yet Still very early Founders I know that You're keeping a close eye on your burn Rate I am too in today's Venture Market Every single hire you make has to be Perfect right you can't make mistakes You got to keep that Runway as long as Possible so that you can run more Experiments and you need talented people To run those experiments and figure out How you going to get product Market fit How you going to scale your company and That's why you need to use LinkedIn jobs As you know LinkedIn brings you the Candidates that you can't find anywhere Else LinkedIn passed the 1 billion Member Mark think about that 1 billion Members and 70% of LinkedIn users don't Visit the other leading job sites this Is a phenomenal statistic they don't Even go to the other job sites why Because they might not be looking and Those are the best hires but they're Hanging out on LinkedIn doing Professional development checking in on Their Network building their Network Sharing content finding leads all that Great stuff bottom line there's amazing Hires waiting for your company on LinkedIn and nowhere else and they have A special deal right now post a job for Free what F what a great price Linkedin.com twist that's right Linkedin.com
Twiist to post your job for free terms And conditions course apply so thinking About the moment that we saw Bitcoin um Reach the more broader technological Consciousness and then stable coins Today I I see a bit of a gap between Them and I know this is perhaps me being An old fuddy duddy but when I think About Bitcoin programmable money and Reforming the world's financial and Economic systems it seems a little bit Strange that we've ended up at a place Where the coolest and most hot thing on The blockchain is digital dollars and We'll get to it in a minute digital Euros is there a tension between the the Desire for decentralization and more Transparency and then stable coins Having you know themselves tied to Existing Fiat currencies I think um you Know my view and this has been the the Sort of circle path since we started was This concept of a kind of hybrid uh System where if we want to move to a to A world where a huge percentage of the Money that's stored like the stored Value and where you know economic Transactions and economic coordination Um all kinds of economic coordination Not just payments but like more complex Forms of contractual coordination where Where more and more of these things are Happening on the internet natively on Chain as people like to say if we want
To get to that World um we have to start From the world we have right and and we Have you know the dollar is the Strongest currency in the world the Dollar uh and you can you can you can Say hey the there's 34 trillion of debt And you know the US government could Maybe like fall overpaying its debts or It's overextended or it's you know take The ralo argument about these sort of These these long running cycles and and Are we in a decline cycle and that's Legitimate discourse like I I I firmly Believe that's very legitimate discourse But like for from a Here and Now Perspective most people in the world Want a network that effectively gives Them a a stable unit of account and Gives them a powerful technologically And utilitywise powerful medium of Exchange and um and I think you know Dollars themselves and digital dollars Specifically are are really really a Powerful and preferred medium and so That's a starting point and we need it Rooted in like real dollars that's why The way we've designed usdc is sort of You know getting as close as we possibly Can to like government obligation money Um and you know kind of this fully Reserved so people who hold are like wow Okay this isn't as risky as a bank Deposit this is like you know t- bills And like and and basically you know cash
That's held with the safest custodians In the world and like that that's you Know for the people who really drill in They can see wow this is this is ultra Safe dollar money and it has all this Utility on the internet and and that is Highly useful um and and it is a hybrid World because we are you know you know Circle is a centralized regulated entity Um you know but um the the protocols of Public blockchains are open network Protocols the Usdc protocol and and the cctp protocol These protocols these are open public Permissionless protocols that developers Can build on that end users can connect To and there's these vast ecosystems of Startups and Enterprises and big Companies that are connecting to these Protocols in the same way that people Connected to http and and so you have This kind of hybrid model um you get the You get the benefits of of this like Public internet infrastructure and you Get the sort of um reliability certainty Um compliance legality of a of a digital Dollar that's sort of anchored in in in Its core in the existing dollar system And then providing that interoperability Layer so that you know you you want that Interoperability layer a lot of people You probably remember this when like Skype came out like it was like wow I Can't believe it I can have free phone
Calls on the internet amazing obviously We use all kinds of stuff for that now But like you know for a while it was Like really important that like you had Interoperability you could use like Skype out if you remember Skype out was Like oh I can use my Skype to like get On a regular connect to the Legacy phone System right um now it's not quite the Same analogy but it's similar here in That like you want interoperability you Want basically the ability to like come On and off chain very very seamlessly And easily all around the world yeah I Had in my notes is circle a trafi Company or a crypto company I tried to Answer that question while prepping for Our chat today and I ended up having no Answer to it so I'm glad you think that It's hybrid because that makes me feel Better about not being able to put the Company into one camp in particular I do Want to go back just a little bit to the The point about um reserves and so forth I looked into the funds that you guys Hold um through your uh main Black Rock Um fund if you will are fun yep exactly Uh by the way I do love that in the SEC Filings it's like who can purchase this Not you just circle kind of cool to have Your own fun um but if you go through The reserves apart from just Standard Bank balances you guys do hold a an Enormous amount of US federal debt yeah
And when we think about the Euro Stablecoin uh EC uh which has seen some Pretty impressive growth lately does That mean that circle's going to hold The underlying backing assets for the Euro stable coin in um EU and Euro Denominated debts as well yeah so um the European uh stablecoin laws um actually Affect both usdc and EC and so July 1st We announced that we were the first Global stable coin issuer to have both a Dollar stable coin usdc and a Euro Stable coin EC legal electronic money in The European Union and issued and made Available in the European Union itself So it's both dollars and Euros that are Under that regime we're the only major Company and Global player with the Dollar stable coin that is actually Legally compliant now there but Specifically to your question um the the The laws kind of um prescribe you know The kind of safety uh of the reserves And and what you need to do and Euro Needs to be held in Euro cash or it can Be held in um basically like the highest Rated European Government Bond so think Of it as German tea bills or say French Tea bills right bundus bonds uh for Example uh Jeremy that's Italy eraser Come on I'm just telling you what are The highest rated you know government Bonds and so some portion meaningful Portion of the reserves can be held that
Way now URC is new it's growing uh but It's you know we're not at the stage Where we have that sort of same exact Structure as usdc but we're optimistic About the the potential for for Euro Stable coin and and um and of course We'll evolve to ensure obviously it has To be legally compliant um but um but we Do have the ability to kind of um you Know have a similar structure to Usdc all right everybody you know being At a startup is a team sport you're not Going to get their alone man you got Your Founders you got the early team Members of course investors most Importantly that first couple of Customers right and you all work Together to get your company off the Ground and I have great news for you and Your team Google for startups Cloud Program is now a partner here at this Week in startups and listen you all just Want to know the number here's the Number 200,000 350,000 these are the two numbers what Are these two numbers you're going to Get 200,000 in Google Cloud credits and If you're an AI startup you can get up To $350,000 Google is serious Google for Startups Cloud program is here on this Week in startups just letting you know They are serious about helping your Startup the number is the number okay
And there's two great numbers here 90% Of generative AI unicorns choose Google Cloud we all know that they do a great Job so here's your call to action you Need to get these credits you need to Start building you're going to find find Out everything about this amazing Program Google startup Cloud program at Startups.com twist okay very simple hit The rewind key bookmark this write it Down I want you to sign up right now Pause the podcast because these are Big Numbers folks they really want to Support you I don't know how long They're going to do this for so Startups.com twist all right let's get Back to this amazing program all right Let's talk about the state of stable Coins as a market you and I are both uh Token terminal fans on Twitter and they Had a really excellent set of charts That shows four critical data points Here one is uh upper left is outstanding Supply uh total stable coins in Circulation nearly back to an all-time High if I'm reading that chart correctly But the the charts that really stood out To me was the number of stable coin Holders uh the amount of transfers and How quickly things are moving around it Seems that all the charts right now for Stable coins are up and to the right at Almost at an accelerating pace so Jeremy Why is this moment proving so um fcked
For the stable coin Market you know it's It's it's interesting because you know Over the years and I would say even say Two years ago a year ago you know people Are always asking like um you know you Know what does it take for this to Achieve like mainstream scale right and And you know my answer has has typically Been um there's sort of three key things That we need to solve right and and by We I don't just mean Circle I'm sort of Like collectively like all of us Together are trying to figure out how to Solve this one of those is Infrastructure so the infrastructure the Blockchain networks themselves and and And my mental model for these blockchain Networks is these are internet operating Systems and basically we need higher Performance higher throughput internet Operating systems these blockchain Networks and so that's been a big jump Over the past couple of years we've Firmly moved into the sort of third Generation of blockchain networks Through high performance layer one Blockchains and these layer 2os and what That affect effectively means is that You can do you can do higher throughput Uh and and the transaction costs for per Transaction are either sub asent or a Penny or whatever and so you know this Is you know Brian uh Armstrong tweets About you know subc sub Penny
Transactions like we're there right and You know there are these high Performance networks and that is Contributing to that growth because you Know you bring the unit costs down the Marginal cost down you make the Throughput higher it's sort of like Going from dialup to broadband web 1.0 To web2.0 we're kind of going through That infrastructure upgrade and and That's unleashing more utility now the Second thing is that um stablecoin Networks like usdc are network effect Businesses they are they are platforms That people build on meaning developers Build apps to integrate to the protocol And the more apps that are integrated The more utility the network has the More people who have the digital asset Uh the more utility the network has and So you you you have these kind of Positive Network effect models and and Then the more that happens the more the Developers say hey like I'm at a Competitive disadvantage if I'm building A product if I don't support usdc and so You have the infrastructure upgrades you Have these really interesting both user And developer Network effects that are Starting to really take hold and then You know you also have like what I'll Call like real usability improvements um And it's part of the infrastructure Upgrade you know you probably remember
You know just just even two three years Ago right you know to use a stable coin You need to like go buy it somewhere and Then you needed to like go get like a Browser plugin and the browser plugin You needed to in order to use it you Needed to buy like ethereum and like That cost a bunch and there's like fees And then like takes you like seven Minutes to transfer the ethereum to your Self- custody wallet and like it's just Like completely nonsense completely Nonsense and and so it would be like Totally justified for someone to say Like who in the right mind is going to Is going to use this but now you know You literally through through web- based Interfaces and mobile app interfaces you Can onboard into a a wallet uh with like The onboarding experience of like Onboarding to like WhatsApp with a Mobile ID a pass key a face ID like These kinds of things it's it's secure And you don't have to remember seed Phrases and all this Jazz and you can You know the the what I like to call the On andof Rams which is sort of the the Way in which you can um kind of get from The you know existing you know money System into the onchain system is much Much easier and getting better and so All of that combined is creating Conditions that allow it to be easier to Adopt and use stable coins and and sort
Of the the the final boss in all of this Um is the government and and and so what We're really I think what's really Exciting is that all around the world Almost every major jurisdiction from Japan to to Hong Kong to Singapore to All of Europe the UK UAE and the United States all these jurisdictions are Putting in place laws and regulations That Define stable coins as legal Electronic money and a part of the real World financial system and so as those Laws happen then that really opens up The the the universe beyond the crypto Early adopters to everyone and so like I Think by the end of 2025 we we believe That like stable coins will be a legal Integrated part of the financial system Like pretty much really broadly and so It's that's why I also think those those Charts are great and they're fun to look At and I and and we're excited about That but um we also recognize like it's Still super early days when you think About how how large this phenomenon can Be um because we're we're still we're Kind of like in the crossing the chasm Metaphor Jeffrey Moors kind of thing We're I think we're kind of like midair Trying to leap over the chasm right now We're not we have not crossed we have Not crossed the chasm things could still Go bad and we could plummet um but um But I think I think we're going to make
The lead okay I want to get to the Future currencies point in a second but On the wallet's point I do think that The user interface for crypto RIT large Has gotten so much better over the last 105 years but also in the last couple Years to your point is there a time in The future that you can see when I have Okay let's just say a City bank account And I have a debit card and I want to go Purchase something and it's a usdc Transaction and City Bank could Effectively mediate between my checking Account balance of dollars and digital Dollars that it might have for its own Kind of swapping purposes and I can use A Trad card in a uh usdc transaction Without needing to have a stable coin Account or metamask account a coinbase Account whatever and I can just use what I have not even know that I've switched From regular dollars to digital dollars So there's it's a there's a lot in that Question I I think um so I think there's A lot of things happening Simultaneously um that are that are that That align with what you're describing So on the one hand we are seeing more And more um what I'll broadly call like The fintech forward Banks or like the What are often called Neo Banks right More and more of these firms that are Just adding directly the ability to use Stable coins um and so whether that's
New bank in Latin America or that's Revolute in Europe or you know a a kind Of brokerage uh app like a a a Robin Hood obviously you know in some ways you Know some of these huge um crypto firms Like uh coinbase and binance that have Like 400 million users combined those Are like kind of financial super apps Increasingly where you can hold a Balance you can take your paycheck you Can have a card attached to it you could Do these things and and they make it Seamless to get usdc and stuff like that Um so we're seeing you know more and More of this ability to store value in What you would think of as dollars um it Is usdc and actually um you know we we Work with both visa and MasterCard today And they have programs in place where a Card issuer so some someone's issuing Like a Visa card or a Master Card those Card issuers issue a card where the Money that is being spent is actually Stable coin um and so you're spending Usdc and there's a big proliferation of These especially in Emerging Markets We're seeing all these products launch With they're B basically like the Neo Banking style digital wallet apps that Have a card and it lets you use stable Coin as your as your way to store value Because people want to hold dollars and Then you spend it in the existing card Network rail
And it settles using usdc so like those Those card issuers can actually settle The funds that they owe to Visa or Mastercard actually using usdc itself so Like it's actually being used as a Settlement rail for between the the Financial institution and and and the Card networks um so that's an Interesting thing that's happening on That side um on the other side we're Seeing like Merchant acquirers so you Know the world pays of the world uh you Know the checkout.com of the world the Newes of the world the stripes of the World offering options for settlement on The on the on the merchant side in usdc So we're we we're seeing yeah so Actually one of the coolest uh things That we saw um earlier this year was John Collison at their big annual Conference got up and did his kind of One more thing uh uh thing and he Basically said hey look um you know Crypto's back but it's it's usdc and It's stable coins and he demoed Basically like in in the stripe checkout Product um which they're rolling out It's like a it's like the product that You could just add as a merchant to your Website or your app or whatever in the Stripe checkout product like usdc Payment acceptance will be right there Alongside card payment acceptance and he Was really excited about it um and
Talked about it there's a a video of him On Twitter you can see and he basically You know shows like hey you can now Settle look how easy this is you can Have instant settlement on they demoed With usdc the money arrives to the Merchant instantly and the fees are much Lower and you know he he sort of made a Comment like this is how like payments Should work and so we're starting to see These sort of connection points again The hybrid model these connection points That that are there and I do think that To your precisely to your question as The kind of legal status of this becomes More clear that more and more um Financial institutions will sort of say Hey yeah I'm going to use this as like a A sement layer um because it's um it's It's it's a very powerful way to do that And and it could be like a business says I'll take usdc because I get the money Instantly and the lower fees like good For me the business and then on the Other side there's more and more of These enduser products whether it's a Traditional Bank a Neo Bank a crypto a Super app like these different types of Apps where it's a seamless experience to Scan a QR code and as I tweeted about Earlier this year like iOS opening up uh NFC uh to thirdparty wallets is a really Big deal and that will enable yeah that Will enable um web3 wallets that have
Usdc in theory it'll enable them to do Tap pay right so you can actually use Your phone with a wallet with USBC to Make a transaction to a to a merchant at A point of sale other people have to do Stuff the processors the acquirers have To like enable blockchain transactions You know the wallet developers Themselves need to upgrade their wallets To add NFC Tech and they need to get Approved by Apple and like there's a Number of things that need to happen but These are all things that are kind of in The 2025 Horizon which is pretty Cool okay everybody you know I love Newsletters I love sharing knowledge and What I'm up to through my newsletter and If you've got a newsletter you got to Check out bive it's spelled be h i i v I Use it for the twist ticker and and our Twist 500 newsletter my team is raving About beehive because it is an All-in-one platform that not only Powers Our newsletter but it's got all these Incredible platform features that are Helping us grow our subscriber base Which is what these newsletters are About listen to this beehives co-founder Is the same person who helped morning Brew reach millions of subscribers in Other words they took all those tactics And they put it into a platform they've Got a great feature I just want to tell You about it's called the AI post
Builder this makes writing easy as a Great writer sometimes I need Inspiration well they will get inputs For your ideas and then shape and Optimize your content for the Maximum Impact it's perfect for busy Founders Right and uh they're available 24 hours A day they also have a referral program That turns your audience into Ambassadors it works great plus hey if You want to monetize they got an ad Network and you know what it's super Affordable starting just at $39 a month So here's a great call to action 30-day Free trial plus 20% off your first three Months go to beehive.org Something you're not disrupting the Dollar you're actually I think Strengthening the Dollar by helping it Become digital abut buying US Government Debt similar thing in in in Europe but You know if I was the leader of a Country that had a less stable currency And my citizens were trying to um Offload their local assets for for Dollars which they now can do with usdc Do you run into people telling you to Get lost from their National borders Well within the International Financial System right you have um you have a lot Of different currencies obviously There's hundreds literally um and and You have a lot of different um kind of Approach is to in the traditional system
How money is allowed to move um and you Um you know in some big markets you have Very strict laws and capital controls Like China and India right those are the Two probably the two big biggest Examples and you know you don't see us Going to China trying to drive usdc we Can't do that it's not that would be fun But it wouldn't work no um and so in Many parts of the world you have what Are called you know free floating Currencies and you have kind of open Open currency exchange and there's no Restrictions on you know a person uh Holding different types of currencies And so huge parts of the world that is The case um but I I think um it'll be Very interesting I I do think that this Is an area where it's a it's certainly Going to be complex from a policy and Political Perspective um and you know I think I Like to refer to you know stable coin As overthe toop money like we had over The money yeah Ott money it's like Ott Media OT Communications Ott software Distribution like all this stuff like The internet kind of let you do this and So stable coins are like Ott money you Know Netflix is Ott television but like You know different countries have Different laws about what Netflix can And can't do um and so we will have to Navigate that and we are and so in
What's what's actually happening is more And more countries are are are actually Putting stable coin laws on the books And they're figuring out like okay well Here's how a foreign issued stable coin Like usdc is going to be allowed to work In our country and you know the Intermediaries within those countries That are allowed to be distributors or Providers and what are the reporting Requirements and other things so there Are going to be laws that um react to This but at the same time right there's Utility there's like the raw utility That exists an end user preference and I' I've said this in the past like I Think in increasingly over the next Decade people everywhere will be able to Vote with their smartphones what Economic system they want to participate In and and that is going to create Complex issues but I do think that that Is that is um a path uh that that will Emerge it's gonna be ultimately very Very good for open systems I think that I think so that'll goet wins I mean That's sort of my my you know thesis From 30 years ago open internet wins Right I mean I mean look if you as you Said earlier were looking at the Soviet Style economy what was one of the Problems well it was information you Can't essentially planless you have all The information they couldn't get that
By definition ero everything was out of Whack at all times so I think you and I Share a transparency leads to efficiency Argument I just I wonder what will Happen when I don't know brics countries For example you know opt out of this Because they want to have stricter Capital controls and so forth I mean They're going to end up isolated not Only from digital money ritten large but Also I just think from an economic System that is experimenting in a way That really helps people escape what you Might call bad economic geography Derived luck like I was born in the US I Had dollars my whole life right good Fortune it poses significant questions For governments over time and my my own Belief is that um like it just seems Inevitable over the coming decades that There'll be like because of the internet Because of digital currency because of The proliferation of this technology It's likely that there will be fewer you Know fewer major um International Currencies uh I mean there already are Very few intern major International Currencies you look at that in the trade Flow data and sort of what happens in in Trade flow right but I think even all The way down to the to the kind of kind Of domestic use right I I think that There will end up being fewer um and and That that ultimately can be very very
Very positive for economic development It can be very very positive for Financial stability it can be it can be It it can it can be very very positive Um but it will require some difficult Choices for you know for countries Around the world and even in the US Government itself like the treasury Department or the US government they Don't necessarily want to have like the Their Economic Policy decisions which They're mandated to make for the IC US Population now all of a sudden like oh Now we need to think about the Argentinians or now we need to think About the this that is already the case Like interest rates follow the fed and You know we're effectively exporting our Inflation or exporting our our cost of Money and it already happens that way That what's called The triffin Dilemma In in monetary uh theory that exists for For for a a reserve currency but I do Think that these issues um will drive Towards more consolidation in currencies Over time we we are going to get to Interest rates in um just a couple Seconds because I want to talk about Circle's business model and then also It's um history through spaxs IPO fining And so forth but sticking just to the Currencies and blockchain's point uh I Think there are 15 supportive Blockchains for usdc today you guys have
The ah your website led me astray this Is what happens when uh things are Moving quickly uh 16 blockchains I Apologize Jeremy that's right that's Right you're fine the dollar stable coin The Euro stable coin um you know I guess Maybe the right question is is there a Is there a time in the next couple years When it's 10 currencies and 50 Blockchains or is it going to be more Like four currencies and 20 blockchains How much more do those numbers go up in The Near yeah so a couple things I think First I'll talk about blockchains Themselves so sure while to some people They might say Hey you know e EVMS have Won and it's layer one layer 2os super Chains all this stuff like that that That's like done I don't agree with that Um I what I see and I I I use my mental Model on this is mobile which is and you Can remember this well pre- iPhone there Were like 17 different mobile operating Systems there was the Symbian operating System Windows Phone remember uh Palm Pilot Blackberry NTT doomo you know you Had you had tons of different tons of These different and and and everyone was Trying to get Developers to say build on This and get their handsets distributed And all this stuff it was all awful like None of it was any good it was it wasone Of it trash yeah it was all trash like
And and people were like you go to Mobile World Congress and it was like And then people be showing off their Like the what they did with their Symbian 60 or whatever and it was just Awful right so one could argue in some Ways like as it being frank right like Blockchain experiences and like the Usability of blockchains and like the Capabilities of blockchains like up Until more or less now like has been Kind of awful right it's sort of like Here's this incredible you know these Are like operating systems they're Competing for capabilities developers End user capabilities friendliness Etc And I would very clearly say we have not Yet achieved an iPhone moment of Blockchain networks themselves wait I Want to I want to push back on that Because base which is associated with Coinbase has been growing incredibly Quickly and I follow a lot of folks who Build on crypto and I keep seeing more And more notes about Bas and so to me in My head I was questioning is this the Kind of like iPhone moment faster Cheaper integrated backed well by a Major company so that was my impression Uh I I don't think you're trying to say That it's not the iPhone moment but you Seem to think that we still aren't there Yet is that fair well there's so much Still to be done um meaning like and and
By the way we're we're huge fans of B we Have like all you know our products are Supporting base and coinbase is a key Strategic partner in in in in usdc and So like it is it is great and it's Amazing what they've achieved and like I'm constantly retweeting cool stuff That they're doing and stuff so it's It's really good um but like we need to Be in a world where blockchain networks Are not just supporting Financial Transactions they're supporting social Games content intellectual property They're supporting Providence of data For AIS they're supporting you know AI Agent transaction flows they're Supporting retail scale um applications You know digital tokens that are used in Like super large mainstream application Utilities right all this stuff you can't Do that today you you can't do it like The the the throughputs not there Everything falls over so we're not Scalable in that sense we need to be Able to get to millions of transactions Per second on these networks over time And and that is achievable and um and And and look I think the the whole Paradigm for software engineers and Developers and the user experience side Of this is still quite early as well so That's just sort of looking back in my Own experience in sort of the maturation Of platform software and developer
Experience and user experience we're We're not quite there and I would agree Though that we're we're getting darn Close right but in in my mind um even if You get to a paradigm let's say you have A a blockchain that like really clicks Like we're still going to end up with Kind of layers above that that Proliferate the number of networks that Are out there and so I do think we'll Have a period of time um where you know There's this concept of like an app Chain which is like you know if I'm if I'm let's say I'm some large Asian Internet company and I have 500 million Users on my app and I want to start Using digital tokens and stable coins And smart contracts like and I open that Up to my end users like every everything In the market today would just collapse It just can't it can't support that but You can imagine a world where you have Almost like virtual private clouds in AWS you have kind of like these spun up Infrastructures that are spun up as kind Of these kind of connected blockchains Network of networks type type models um That that support this scaling and you Know basically like all of that is is Sort of fragmentation and more Infrastructure development and we want To make sure as Circle that our stable Coin Network protocols which is usdc EC Cctp other things that we're building in
Terms of like gas fee abstraction There's a lot of stuff we're building That all of that um is is sort of Abstracted away uh for for users and Developers and we're going to continue To support the new ecosystems that come So whether it's 15 or 50 I can't give You an an exact number but I what I can Say is We are continuing to build and Deploy and launch our stable coin Network infrastructure on more Blockchain networks and I don't know When when when that you know kind of Reaches its iPhone moment or reaches the Point of diminishing returns I don't Know I don't know in terms of the Question around currencies um we've Obviously launched usdc and URC and um I can't say you know we're Not going to launch other currencies but What I would say is we're seeing all Around the world whether it's in Emerging Markets or developed markets we Are seeing because stable coin laws are Coming into effect we're seeing high Quality stable coin projects coming Online in a ton of different places Around the world and so I think like 2025 will be a year where you see high Quality you know peso stable coins and You know uh Yen stable coins and Aussie Dollar stable coins and pound sterling Stable coins you're going to see more of These we don't need to be the issuer of
All of these different foreign currency Stable points what we need though is we Need quality regulated firms that can Build on the same kind of infrastructure That we've built up so that you have Like really good interoperability and so That the applications can be built that Can use all these really easily and so That's something that we're quite Excited about we've published a lot About onchain effects and what that Could look like and um you know we're We're we're excited about the the Potential growth in in additional Currency stable coins but right now We're quite content uh with with dollars And Euro as Circle products why would You seeed the Australian stable coin Market the Japanese un stable coin Market the I don't know uh the Swedish Croner stable coin Market to another Company when you already have the I mean The you have enough money you have you Know a great brand you have experience You already know The Regulators to some Degree why would you let you know Billy Bob or Jackie Jane in Australia come up With the um what would that be like audc Audc thank you I mean look you know There's just a there's there's like Focus is one thing like we have to be Focused um and and uh you know I think Every every one of these is complex uh There's complex legal and Regulatory
Issues the local preferences of say the Central bank and other things play play A role um and you know we sort of think About like what's the market size you Know how big of a market is this coming Back to some of the discussion we had Earlier like we genuinely believe that You know the role of the dollar in Particular in this age of of of an Internet Financial system is going to Grow and and you know I think it will be The biggest and so we we want to you Know obviously keep a lot of our energy Focus there while also enabling those Kind of connection points and on and off Ramps um in in markets around the world And so we we we we want to encourage That development um and I and I think we Are in encouraged by the developments That are happening um but we don't feel Compelled that from a from a kind of Business or ecosystem perspective that's Something that we have to do and you can Always buy them later you know if Someone does all the work of building in A usdc and you know they're not going to Become as big as compy doing usdc Because there's a fewer Australian Dollars out there in demand you can Always just snap them up later who Doesn't love a little tech company m&a You know well apart from Lon but Different topic all right so uh I would Back in time and looked at the data from
Usdc circulation its market cap if you Will it was at the start of 2020 about $500 million which was less than I Actually kind of remembered uh by the End of 2021 it was 42.5 billion today It's in the 34 35 billion range but a a Huge growth in um usdc circulation During the time in which interest rates Were doing interesting things I made you A graphic Jeremy I have lots of Graphics I have lots of charts well this is one I Made just for you and you can tell that I made it because it's the ugliest thing You've ever seen but this is the federal Funds uh rate uh as you can see coron Virus time went down zero Rose very Quickly the company as I understand it Does better when money has more value Because you're sitting on lots of Reserves is that a fair Statement not necessarily no um you know I I think um you know if you if you if You think about like monetary Theory and From from both a central bank Perspective and from a say a bank Perspective um there's sort of this idea Of a neutral interest rate and there Sort of a uh there's sort of a a the Zero lower bound that we lived with for A while after the great financial crisis And and monetization of government debt And other things and then you had Obviously like this sort of shock Response to uh uh you sharp inflation
And and and sort of a monetary Tightening and we have these Cycles Obviously where you you you have kind of Changes and but like the kind of nominal Interest rates uh Andor kind of neutral Interest rates and where those land I Think broadly um that concept of a Neutral interest rate which some people Today think might be around 3% or 2.75% Or something like that where it's sort Of neither restrictive nor uh or nor nor Uh eing right is um is potentially like The ideal State and so whether when You're Central Bank or uh or a bank Itself like high interest rates are not Great like there there well yes there Might be some incremental income from Sort of reserves or or deposits in A Bank's case that comes from that um it's A restrictive environment there's less Economic activity there's less money Velocity in the economy there's less Investing Capital you know you know RIS And so when when interest rates go down Um you know yes the the actual like Reserve income that we may receive on a Unit basis may go down that is that is Just factually true and obvious right But at the same time when the price of Money gets cheaper money velocity picks Up and capital investment picks up and Economic velocity picks up and that's Reflected in both risk capital in terms Ter of like investment in markets but
It's also affected in the real economy The goal of that declining interest rate Is to continue to get in real real in Real investment in the real economy and Those are supportive of a growth of a Stable coin um you know so so we're We're you know we've been through Different Cycles we've been through an Easy cycle we've been through a Restrictive cycle and so now we're going To learn what a more moderate or uh uh Cycle looks like maybe like we no one Can predict the future but Um yeah I I I think you know so so I Think our view is that um you know you Have you have kind of multiple forces You have these macro forces that we Don't control which is just like what The what the economy is doing and how Central banks are responding like we Just we have nothing to do with that on The other hand we have a plat Network And we have a and we have user flywheels Developer flywheels we're building this Very high utility form of of digital Money we're building this real really Powerful developer platform that has its Own intrinsic growth Dynamics to it uh And that and that you know I believe When you think about the total Addressable Market of legal electronic Money today which is on a global basis Over a hundred trillion dollars like I Believe that a a the the portion of that
Of that legal electronic money pie the Portion of that that is sort of dollar Stable coins and Euro stable coins or Sort of stable coins is going to grow it Will grow over time um whatever the Interest rate is right and so this is Why I I look at this and say hey we're In the really early days here we're Talking about only $160 billion doar out Of 100 trillion um that are in stable Coins today so we're super early and if You if you think that like internet Scale utility what it did for Media or Communications or for transportation or Software distribution if you think that Internet money and this kind of thing Can be as transformative as those other Things like we might see a world in 10 Or 15 or 20 years where 10% of the world Is uh is is in something like this like That's actually like when you think About internet markets and their growth Like 10% is takes decades to to get to That but in in the next one to two Decades I do think we could see a world Where 10% of money is like stable coin Money um and that would be extraordinary And you know we hope to be an important Part of it okay so let's bring that ch Up and prob you just said against this Because I think it's actually very Illustrative of the Dynamics I play here So um if you're watching the video of This I added some arrows green is when
The fed's raising rates Red's when They're going down and then the blue Dots are different Financial moments From from Circle the first Blue Dot is The uh initial spack um filing and then The second blue dot is the repricing of The spa and then the third Blue Dot is The end of the spack and then the fourth Blue Dot is the company announcing Earlier this year that it is filed Privately to go public and you might be Surprised given the relationship between Holding reserves and interest rates Higher rates hold reserves more money That Circle was putting together a Speack deal when rates were zero but to Jerem's point economic activity at that Point was so high stable coins were Enjoying their first Peak if I guess if You will in the 2021 era so it sounds Jeremy like money was inexpensive things Were very active that was great for Circle because everyone was buying St Coins and now when rates are higher you Might make more money in the short term But if you want to grow The Pie as much As you can in the longer term uh more Economic activity is better than more Near-term cash flow Argo lower rates Could yield a bigger company down the Road I think a good conceptual model I Think it's a that's that is exactly the Right conceptual Model okay so in that case then my point
I was going to ask you you know rates Are going to go down soon are you Concerned but it sounds more like you Would frame that as a a very shortterm Or near term my Rue yeah my view has Been for you know quite some time now That rates need to come down it's it's Critical that rates need to come down um Because because I I think it is it is Ultimately uh we we we need to ensure That there's a healthy economic Environment and um and and so you know I've been I've been of that view you Know for for some time and I think the Market pment of that view as well I mean You know so you know the markets uh you Know you know obviously Banks stable Coin issuers like Circle I think we're All of the view that you know a we need We need to see lower rates to sustain The economy and uh to create an Environment that is a better environment For entrepreneurs a better environment For small businesses a better Environment for large companies a better Environment for Capital that needs to be Ined Ed for growth for long-term growth Um when you when you have more money at Rest and you have more money on the Sidelines and you have you know people Who who don't want to take risk which is How economic growth happens people take Risk you know they they sort of Say Hey I want to build a new Factory I want to
Open a new restaurant I want to hire More employees right we want to we want To encourage that and lower interest Rates are really critical to that and I Think also really important to the Growth of of um of the internet Financial system yeah it's interesting How much this feels like we're having a Quas Central Banking conversation even Though we're not because Circle Sits in in such like the center of an Economic web of different entities that We have to talk about secondary effects And so forth It's we do I wish we had Like two more hours to just riff about The future of money and so forth but we We don't I do want to look ahead though A little bit we' talked about Regulations around the world and I saw You guys had a hey honestly I'm going to Say i s produced a hero video of you Talking about regulations and coffee and Purchasing and so forth um audio quality Was fantastic 10.2 Engineers for nailing That um but what is the state of of Regulations here in the US and how Optimistic are you that we are not going To Fumble the bag as it were yeah I I I Remain very optimistic about it and and You know look we're we're now like in The thick of a presidential election Cycle um and so You know all bets are off for the next Eight weeks or whatever it is for for
For anything happening in anything um Yes so so obviously a lot a lot of the Attention is is on sort of what are Going to be the policy agendas of either You know a trump or a Harris Administration and and all that jazz but I think there's been a huge amount of Work in the United States with multiple Stakeholders on payment stable coin the Payment stable coin act which is sort of Um you know in a in in my view in a Fairly mature State Bipartisanship uh in in in the house and I think also from Senate leadership I Think we've seen great engagement from The administration the White House the Treasury Department um uh the fed and It's something that has been set as a Priority by the administration uh to get Done for a couple of years and I think Um a lot of the the kind of key things That needed to be thought through in how To do this in a way which supports uh You know private sector Innovation the Kind of safety and soundness Characteristics that are necessary Making sure that the FED plays an Important role in fact a critical role In establishing the standards for what Dollar stable coins are but also giving Um a pathway to you know State uh based Issuers and Regulators sort of like the Dual banking system today you could be a State Chartered bank or a federally
Chartered Bank so creating a a kind of Model for that and um you know there's Been a huge amount of work and I'm I'm Quite confident that we will see uh Payment stable coin act uh become law I I I'm not you know I'm I'm not a Prognosticator on that but it seems like Everyone wants to see that happen and It's it's still possible that could Happen uh inside of this Congress uh Potentially in the lame duck uh session Um but uh you know that all depends on You know presidential election outcomes And um but this is you know even Matching Waters just said publicly I Think in the last week like if if she Were to be chair of the committee if They if they won the house and the Democratic side like this is on you know Top of her list so or near the top of Her list you know and it and Frank it's The top of the list for Patrick McHenry And the Republicans as well so I think You you're you're seeing um you're You're seeing a lot of of desire to to Get that done so let's say that uh Circle goes public and forget all the Details that are off just assume public For a second and the government shows up And starts buying shares because you're You're buying their debt you're doing Their digital currency for them Essentially and they start buying shares In the company would that make you
Comfortable or Uncomfortable yeah I've never given a Thought to that um and um I I I actually I don't know if governments really even Do that like I I have no I have no idea So they don't is is the answer to that Question but I think you guys are such An interesting company that's working With such an interesting currenc and the Potential to become so large that I Think we're going to have to ask new Questions down the road this is this is A five or 10e point to be clear but There's so much interesting stuff that Could come as like a public private Partnership if you will between Government's currencies and stable coin Providers like I can see the Australian Government supporting a private company That was yeah I mean look the financial System is highly regulated and it's it's Sort of like the energy system is highly Regulated our transportation systems are Are highly regulated our space travel Systems are highly regulated the Production of medicines are highly Regulated like most Technologies and Significant infrastructure in society Are highly regulated like the software Industry has sort of had an epic of like 30 years where it was not highly Regulated but now if you're doing Anything really big and really Interesting with software whether it's
AI or you know you're you're applying it With hardware and self-driving cars or You're building a a global digital Currency system system or whatever it is Like if you're if you're doing things That kind of intersect into these kind Of Highly regulated spaces that have These really big impacts on society that Makes sense like I'm not of the view Like hey like this is you know if it Becomes really important to society and Their particular kind of covenants and Like a social contract that needs to be In place around what you do and whatnot Like that that's that is what exists Today and so there are different levels Of of Regulation they're sort of very Light regulation there's heavier Regulation and you know we have like Global systemically important Banks and Those are more highly regulated than you Know the witch talk Community Bank or Whatever it is right you know so if what We're building you know becomes you know Systemically important or or or what Have you then we're going to have a Different relationship with not just the US government but other other Governments as well these are way off in The future things CU this is definitely Not that today uh we're nowhere close to That um but um what we focused on is Obviously we have a vision for what an Internet Financial system can look like
We have a vision for what open Programmable composable money can bring To the world and and the innovation of That and the open internet and what that Makes possible and we want to make sure That that can come to life and and not Be stifled and that and that does Require policy makers and and Governments to to to actually create More degrees of freedom um for Innovation to happen um as has happened In other uh you know major areas of the Internet I tried to frame the question In the most neutral to positive way Possible because I was trying to get Away from what the Chinese government Does with golden shares and so forth and More like the government might want To be a partner in more ways than one in That question but I agree we're a long Ways out uh okay before I let you go you Guys filed privately to go public uh as You and I both know we're staring down The last couple weeks before an election And uh I'm presuming that you guys won't Be pulling the trigger before the Election um what can you tell us about The vibe about when you guys might Decide to List yeah I can't comment on any open You know regulatory filings or matters There's one thing I can't say which is That you know um we are very committed To being a us-listed uh you know uh
Publicly traded company and a big part Of our success as a company has to do With The trust and transparency that we have That we've provided in in what we do and That we believe that if you're facing Usdc as a user or as a business or as a Financial company and you know you you Want that trust and transparency and Being held to the standards of US public Company standards the transparency the Accountability the government governance The ethics all of that is very important To continuing to build build on what We've already done and so we're Committed to that um and we believe it's It's a really important step for us as a Company oh I I agree with all that I Think going public is a great thing I Don't know why I became um you know Business Persona Narada amongst a lot of Unicorns today but I think it's great Transparency shared upside in the public Just everyone gets a bit more visibility And I think it's great especially for Companies uh like cirle so we will talk To you again um in and around IPO time We'll see when that is um but Jeremy Thank you so much for dropping by twist Yet again as always I learn quite a lot We appreciate it uh if you're not Following us on your podcasting Platforms do that we're on YouTube we go Live we have lots of fun my name is Alex
We'll see you guys soon goodbye
