The goal of cardano is to be around and Useful and so we don't tend to look at Things in terms of weeks and months or Even years but we tend to look at things In terms of decades today we interview Founder of cardano Charles hoskinson and A decade since the project began it's Grown from nothing to millions of people As he gives his outlook for cardano in 2024 now tell me how do you compete with That if you're ethereum or Bitcoin or Any of these other guys we discuss What's next what happens after this next Major upgrade a hard Fork will be Initiated and the entire governance System will be turned on and watch Today's whole interview I cannot let you Leave without asking you about midnight Because I ask Charles the one question That every cardano holder is wondering Is it happening this year why do we need A side chain if we have Hydra and as a Cardano holder will I get an aird Dropped token I love it you guys cut Right to the point by the way both my Brother and I as well as Charles are Speaking at rare Evo this year use code Altcoin daily for 5% off your tickets Link down below and let's start um You've been in cryptocurrency for a long Long time what's your why like even Today why are you still so passionate About Crypto well cryptocurrency is part of a
Broader class of Concepts known as Exponential Technologies and they're Super exciting because where and when They work they can have a profound Effect on the economic political and Social systems of the world so in Exponential technology is where you have A small amount of input and you can get Exponential output with it and our first Example of that as the human species was Uh the invention of nuclear weapons you Know we create these things and just a Little bit of uranium and you have this Gigantic explosion and you added just a Little bit more and gets exponentially Larger we're like wow that's crazy so Suddenly we had this new capability in That case a capability actually end the World and because of it it radically Changed the entire world economy we were Used to this idea that every 20 or 30 Years the great Powers would get get Together and go to war with each other So we had World War I and World War II Before that you had Napoleon running Across Europe and doing all these things And then suddenly you have mutually Assured destruction so we were no longer Able to go to war with each other to Resolve our differences instead we had To form the United Nations and have the Cold War and all these types of things So one technology radically changed the Entire output of the world as a whole so
Now you look at 21st century you have All these different exponential Technologies blockchain is certainly one Of them because a small group of people Can build something case of Satoshi for Example that has radically changed Finance and a small group of people can Change thing that can actually rebuild The entire economic political and social Systems of the world to the extent that You change every government how voting Works how transparency Works uh what Your expectations are about your powers As a citizen your identity in the data Economy money sound money these types of Things all of these things can be Reconstructed and you don't need a Million people people you don't need a War you need 50 100 200 300 people Working on an open source project small Group of people exponential returns so Uh there's nothing I can do in my life That's more meaningful than work on that Type of Technology because I actually Have a shot to be on the ground floor You know have a seat in on the table That actually is going to Define how Humanity works in the 21st century so That's kind of setting the stage and Then there's a mounting frustrations I'm Deeply concerned with how Fiat money Works with $34 trillion in national debt And it's only going to get worse from Here if you take a look at like 1988
When The Simpsons came on Homer Simpson Is an uneducated bluecollar worker uh Who somehow is able to buy a house have Three kids and two cars and you look at Today you have husband wife two master's Degrees they can't afford a car they got A cat they take the bus okay so what the Hell happened the money went bad and It's only getting worse over time not Better and that's just one example you Have half of our country the United States feeling that elections are unfair Okay well how do you restore election Integrity just say the other half is Stupid and uh as long as we're winning It's okay um no you have a new voting System you know you have this whole ESG Movement where they say we want to track All carbon in the entire world Everywhere you go well how do you do That without a mass invasion of privacy Or destroying the competitive advantage Of American companies well you need Blockchain system for that so blockchain Can perme touch every single thing we do And what allows us to do is go from a Don't be evil to a can't be evil world And my number one issue especially in an Age of postco is that institutions They've really lost faith and Credibility we don't trust them anymore Your politics basically decide on which Institutions you don't trust but Everybody universally agrees that
Institutions as a whole are losing Credibility whether that be the treasury Department or the FBI or the doj or the CIA or what have you uh you know a lot Of people didn't like the war in Iraq Well not many people trust the Intelligence Community anymore after Edward Snowden how many people trust the NSA to uh be good users of your data you Know how many people trust the justice Department at this point especially with Fisa courts and these types of things we Just don't and we keep saying well we Want change we want change we want Change and the reality is you're not Going to get change at The Ballot Box And you're not going to get change by Telling an uncaring bureaucracy that Things need to be better you get changed By changing the system okay we have to Play a new game and the new game is Blockchain it's one of those exponential Technologies that we have and in just 15 Years we've gone from the Mad pipe dream Of some unknown Cipher Punk on the Peer-to-peer Foundation forums uh to a Global movement with hundreds of Millions of people in trillions of Dollars of value that shows you the Power of exponential technology and how Magical these things things are so That's what gets me passionate and it's Ever renewing like today I just did uh Debates for the Constitutional Committee
Of cardano and we have 21 candidates Running for three seats and uh some of Them are aggregators so there's actually More like 60 candidates and they're from More than 20 countries you know and That's a global movement that's happened Just in cardano which is a microcosm of The macrocosm which is the Cryptocurrency industry um as a whole so It's really having a front row seat with Destiny Charles on altcoin daily we talk to an Audience of over three million on all Our social outlets and we get these Questions all the time especially from New subscribers like what makes cardano Unique how's it different than the other L1s obviously I know cardano versus Solano versus ethereum they're all dap Platforms but what makes cardano unique Well the really thing that made cardano Special was an endless and Relentless Commitment to First principles thinking So we took a step back in 2015 and said Let's imagine as if Bitcoin wasn't Invented and instead let's focus on the Output like how could you build a system That in 10 years 20 years 30 years Actually has a shot of running Governments running Fortune 500 Companies uh being in the room always When transactions are happening Something as pervasive as the web Browser so when we said there that that
Clean room first principal thinking is Necessary first there was a commitment To bringing the brightest people in the World so step one was engage with Universities so we went created Labs all Across the world Stanford CMU University Of washingt Wyoming University of Edinburgh Tokyo Tech University of Athens and wrote 210 papers covering the Entire gamut everything from law and Policy the programming language to uh Scalability protocols etc etc the second Thing was to ask okay where do these Protocols need to go 5 10 25 years in Order for them to be effective Ive and Efficient and that really is in three Categories they need to be scalable so As you gain users you gain capabilities Bitor it's a great example of that where As you gain users get your movie Faster Not slower so you can truly grow to a Multi-billion person protocol second They need to be interoperable because You have to talk to and work with Millions of different things and if it Only works with your own thing it's not Really doing much for you and third you Need good governance because the problem Is if these are going to cover economic And political and social systems the People them have a right to have a say In the evolution and direction of them Otherwise you're going to hyper Centralize around a small group of
Gatekeepers and then what's the point of Replacing the old systems you're just Killing one king and you're anointing a New king and you're like oh this new King's a lot better yeah no I I I'm American I don't like kings you know Let's try to let's try to move beyond That we had a bit of a disagreement About kings in the N 18th century and I Think uh I think we won that fight uh so Uh so that scalability interoperability And governance we like to term a third Generation of cryptocurrencies the Second being smart contract and the First being Bitcoin and what we did with First principles thinking is apply all Those papers towards trying to come up With not only a collection of protocols But also a path to do that in a Maximally decentralized way the goal of Cardano is to be around and useful and So we don't tend to look at things in Terms of weeks and months or even years But we tend to look at things in terms Of decades and a decade since the Project began it's grown from nothing to Millions of people and A5 billion market Cap and uh the most advanced on chain Governance system in the industry in Addition we have the best long-term Scalability approach and the best Long-term interoperability approach with Partner chains so it's taken a long time To get here and there's been a very
Serpentine path and a lot of things but When you look at cardono you can't point To any one particular thing other than The fact that there's a Relentless Commitment to first principal thinking That gets it where it needs to go and Because it's looking at the long Arc the Advantage of that is as you widen the Aperture you can see at any given Pairing of time Progress when you zoom in you may miss It because of some event you know EOS at One point was a little sexier tasos at One point was a little sexier you know Uh uh Iota at one point was a little Sexier I guess now salana is a little Sexier in terms of price action and These other metrics but durability comes From community and durability comes from Good governance durability comes from Showing up every single day and what Makes cardano special is there's a 10-year track record where that happened And when you widen the AR aperture not Only can you see it you can also start Getting an appreciation for how damn and Vulnerable the system is 2400 plus days Of being up and never failing being up 24 hours a day 7even days a week and the Fact that the brain is decentralized Because the academic institutions write Papers they provide the Innovation the Governance is decentralized and we have The most decentralized consensus
Protocol which means the tons of Independent operators all around the World it gives you a sense that this Thing is built like a tank it's not Going anywhere and it's uh it's going to Be relevant and the rest of the things Eventually get commoditized you know all These people like advertising TPS and All that other stuff it's the Smart Cow Effect as new protocols get developed You know people no matter how Innovative They are they get copied pretty quickly There's no greater example of that than In the AI industry where you know we all Were in awe of chat GPT and we said wow That's so incredible look this thing is Like a superc Compu this is this is a Super intelligence and now you got Claude and perplexity and llama and all This other stuff is you know chat GPT Really that amazing and magical and does It have that same awe no because people Basically copied and commoditized and Figured it out so that's no longer the Differentiator that matters and when you Look at things like performance for Example uh that's not so if people are Uh telling you that that's the thing That's where the puck is at but it's not Where it's going you have to have a much More holistic View and you have to have A very Community oriented View and That's I think what makes cardano Different special is that we've always
Had that view and no matter where you go Or what you do it you know you can keep That Mindset let me ask you something that I Feel like is on everybody's mind in Crypto and that's that you know the First time ever crypto is an election Issue so you live in the US cardano Operates around the world but the US is A big Market Donald Trump seems to be a Lot more crypto-friendly than Joe Biden How would crypto in the US look like in A trump presidency versus a Biden Presidency how big of a difference is There in what ways I'm not asking you to Endorse anybody I'm just asking you to Help us understand the difference yeah This is the first election since Grover Cleveland versus Benjamin Harrison where Two US presidents are running against Each other um and uh you know Trump was President for four years and Biden was President for four years the Trump Administration wasn't particularly Pro Crypto uh but they weren't particularly Anti- crypto crypto wasn't large enough For to reach that level so while the Treasury secretary was anti- crypto Trump himself was ambivalent um now Lot's happened in four years crypto's Gone through a mega bull cycle and it's Gotten to a point where it's definitely An issue on everybody's tongue and the Differences between the two candidates
Couldn't be more clear in the case of Trump he figured out how to make money From crypto and there's one Axiom about Trump honesty flows from economics uh so Because he can make money from it it's Always going to be part of his stick and He's raising lots of crypto money and He's doing nfts and Truth social at some Point will be a crypto Haven um Biden And has spent the last four years Conducting a systematic war on crypto And anybody who tells you otherwise is a Partisan who's being dishonest it's Objective true all the major exchanges Have received Wells notices um major Projects have received Wells notices uh Choke point 2.0 is underway where people Are being deplatformed and debanked uh Anti Clarity has come in where things Like ethereum not being security has Apparently been reversed uh even though The SEC was the one who declared it in The first place and attempts to Legislate have been curtailed like for Example when the Senate overwhelmingly In a bipartisan fashion tried to repeal Sa21 the president vetoed it his own Administration has written numerous Reports basically calling crypto snake Oil and has no use or utility um these Are just facts and I and I'm sorry if You're a Democrat and you know people uh Want to vote for Biden maybe you want to Vote for him for a different issue and
You love the his policy but you have to Acknowledge and concede that he's Outsourced his policy to Elizabeth Warren um and what she's decided to do Is Staff the treasury Department with People who basically want to to kill Crypto in the United States uh so we as An industry have some hard choices Because people a lot of our people our Industry are young and are not Republican and are not right-wing and so They don't want to vote for Trump and They don't want to vote for a Conservative option which is why you Notice there's a lot of pro crypto People myself included uh who are going To Robert Kennedy in this particular Election and I actually met with Robert Kennedy down in Austin Texas and I've Never in my life met a political Candidate uh who has such a raw Curiosity and intellect for issues and Also such a great legacy for example When I mentioned the Securities Exchange Act of 1933 he's like yeah my Grandfather wrote it it was the first Commissioner it's like yeah okay that's That's a pretty good Legacy and he's had A front row seat to American politics Since 1961 at the highest level because his Uncle was the president and his dad Almost became the president but just got Shot so uh obviously there's that that's
A good thing to have some diversity There but uh unfortunately Biden is is Not going to give us anything and it has Become an issue because at least 53 Million Americans own crypto currency The majority young the majority Democrat Which translates to if you're taking Money out of their pocket and hurting Their gains uh them saying hang on a Second here Joe Biden just hurt my Portfolio you as a political candidate In election probably defi decided by Less than 3% of the vote don't want to Be in a situation where you just Alienated 53 million people Arbitrarily and capriciously for the Benefit of large financial institutions Not for the common man so uh this is Definitely an issue and Biden's trying To moderate a little bit but he just Can't help himself had he moderated he Should have allowed sabb 121s repeal to Go through instead he vetoed it had he Moderated a little bit he could call for The resignation of chairman gendler uh Had he moderated a little bit he could Have looked at the passage of fit 21 With 70 plus Democrats voting on it and As a opportunity to work with the Republicans and the Senate uh to Basically pass comprehensive crypto Reform and as an industry we've been Very happy because it would have created Complete Clarity on what is a commodity
And what is the security and how the Cftc and the SEC are going to work Together to handle that 60 plus major Cryptocurrency companies got together to Support fit21 instead he refuses to work With them and instead he wants to Continue the uh legislation through Enforcement and the antic Clarity and Also the dishonesty of things like for Example saying uh come in and register Well coinbase tried to do that for 2 Years and had broker dealer licenses not Only were they not allowed to do that as A publicly traded company they got Sued that's just the most dishonesty you Can you can bring in when you say as Your talking points this is an issue of Non-compliance when everybody actually Knows there is no way to comply by Design it's a Kafkaesque regulation Through enforcement policy and this is 100% owned by the Biden Administration Trump did not do this uh there were some Edge cases in here and there like the Henman case or the suit of Ripple uh but Those were more one-offs of particular Small power structures but there was not An all of government approach where the Goal was to kill crypto and when people Go in November you have to really ask Yourself what matters to you if you Believe cryptocurrency and blockchain is Going to be formative in the economic Political and systems of America and
Part of the antidote to get us out of This uh then vote that way if you don't Care about these things then do Understand a vote for Biden is a vote For the death of the American Cryptocurrency industry and it's deeply Personal to me not just because I'm a Cryptocurrency entrepreneur but because I got a letter um a little while ago From the Swiss government H inviting me To a 10-year anniversary to the founding Of ethereum and the letter the second Page of It kind of broke my heart a Little bit it was very Bittersweet they Mentioned that since we formed ethereum In uh Switzerland 1,290 businesses cryptocurrency Businesses were formed there and the Total value of those businesses is over $380 Billion so when you think about that you Ask yourself how many of those Businesses would be formed in the United States of America had we had regulatory Clarity how much of jobs were created And that's just Switzerland not Singapore not Abu Dhabi not Dubai you're Probably looking at over a trillion Dollars of value hundreds of thousands Of jobs and tens of thousands of Businesses over the next five or 10 Years and what that would translate to Is improving not only the GDP of America But also helping us pay off our national
Debt and make our money better and these Types of things by seeding all of that That's basically like saying take Microsoft Google and apple and Tesla and Just go put them all in Germany or go Put them all in Abu Dhabi or something Like that how many times can we do that As a country before we go bankrupt how Many revolutions can we miss out on Before America collapses at the nation State so that's the real life Consequence of this policy it's not Number go up or number go down or Bitcoin's not going to do as well or Ethereum is not going to do as well it Translates to we as a country have Higher unemployment we as a country have Less jobs uh we as a country have less Economic competitiveness and ultimately We collapse as a country if we keep Doing this and this is direct ly at the Feet of the Biden Administration and They have shown no desire to work with Our industry it's anti- desire so come November do understand that these Elections do have consequences and my Recommendation is choose a candidate Who's Pro crypto at every level from the Local to the federal and it doesn't have To be a republican it could be a third Party any vote outside of this is Expressing your interest in that that Respect you got to get out there and Vote this year is hugely important but
Let's zoom out and I want to talk about Cardano today so we are on the verge of I think you said the most significant Hard fork in the history of the project The Chang hard Fork the voler era help Us understand why this is so Significant so onchain governance is so Hard that people like falic write blog Posts saying you shouldn't do it you Know it's very difficult the entire Bitcoin Community doesn't do it which is Why you can never upgrade anything um so What do you give up and what do you gain So in terms of what do you gain if you Get onchain governance right you can Move very quickly upgrade your system Stay competitive and relevant forever You also have the resources in a Decentralized way to be able like a Government does to maintain your Affairs Whatever those are Affairs are they Could be adoption branding marketing Development research National Defense Etc etc okay so that's what you gain What do you give up well you have to get Thousands tens of thousands potentially Hundreds of thousands of people have Never met each other live in many Different countries speak different Languages different cultures to somehow Agree to do stuff together not so easy So we as an ecosystem spent two years Having this conversation and we wrote a Sip called sip 1694 named after the uh
Birthday of vol and basically the Sip Tries to achieve three outcomes one it Wants to create an Effective Government Two it wants to create an efficient Government and three wants create a high Integrity government and you add these Things together I like calling it The Governance Trilemma usually you get two of the Three but not all three so China for Example is quite efficient and effective They make decisions very quickly and if You look at the last 30 years they've Gone from a Backwater to a superpower It's hard to argue with that efficacy Look at the growth of High-Speed Rail or These types of things on the other hand Don't have a lot of Integrity why Because they're per perfectly willing to Throw millions of people under the bus Or do very unethical things like have Camps or what have you in order to speed Up their growth so like many of these Autocratic authoritarian regimes they're Efficient and potentially effective Depending on the wisdom of leadership But no Integrity Switzerland on the Other hand is a high integrity culture And it's a very effective culture they Tend to make the right decisions and They tend to protect human rights but Horrifically inefficient and if you Don't believe me try to build something In Zurich you you'll be talking about it
For 10 years before you even get the Meeting to talk about it okay so it Takes a really long time to do anything In Switzerland why because they're Protecting a 5600 year old institution The and so you gota you got to work with That so that's an example where it's Missing something so how do you get all Three how do you make the right decision All the time you make that decision Quickly and when you make that decision It doesn't leave people behind so with SIP 1694 it's an experiment to try to do All three of those things and boy is it Hard you have a constitution you got to Write an onchain representation of Things and first what does that even Mean in a blockchain context what are Fundamental blockchain rights they're Different than human rights they're scop To the daps and users these types of Things and very few people have ever had The audacity to try to write a Blockchain constitution much less a Blockchain that's understandable by the Blockchain itself so it's actually Written in a formal pros and code second Um how do you build institutions that Are servant leaders to work with the Government so that they can help take Very complicated things and get them to A state you can vote on them like a Budget or a hard fork or a protocol Parameter change or these types of
Things or else you'll never have Efficacy or efficiency and third how do You build the right on chain government That represents everybody so what we did As an ecosystem is we took a Constitutional republic model so you Have elected representatives and Combined it with a new form of Governance called liquid democracy Liquid feedback and which basically Register D and people delegate to you But they can pull their delegation at Any time so your power goes up and down On an epic by epic basis so these two Things together with an onchain Constitution uh is basically sip 1694 And this is something that took a very Long time to figure out the community Came together we wrote a Proto design Then we had 25 workshops in more than 20 Countries over a two-year period and Many iterations we've had a long Standing for over a year as an ecosystem Test net soncho net where people try to Attack it and all these different types Of things and now we're at a point where Probably in the next three to five days The final version of the Noe note 9.0 Will be ready to go it's Fork ready Which means then as soon as 70% of stake Pool operators upgrade uh a hard Fork Will be initiated and the entire Governance system will be turned on and There's no going back you now have a
Complete onchain government wired in With a 1.5 billion a Treasury System That's been just accumulating over the Last seven years uh and uh it's at the Fingertips of millions of people uh Who've never met each other don't work Together and somehow they're going to be Able to use this system to quickly make Decisions and that are in the best Interest of the cardano ecosystem and Here are some examples the annual budget There's a lot of desire to spend between 100 to 250 million per year on various Things for cardano like people often Complain well cardano doesn't have good Marketing all right well Coalition of People are forming right now to fix that There's jpeg stores leading the way Along with inter6 marketing committee 25 To 50 companies will probably come Together and they're going to go make a Recommendation for all the marketing They want to do on an annual basis Probably scoped into about a 15 to $25 Million annual spend what does that Translate to translates to a card on a Booth at every major conference Bi-weekly hackathons and ra all this Stuff okay great well what holds him Accountable who holds him accountable How do you have audit over oversight how Do you make sure the money is well spent Who exactly is going to execute and how How do you fire them if they don't do
That right job that's what governance Solves for you it's not just about Giving away the money it's about having Governance come there and the community Can speak with one voice the intent to Market brand and then have institutions And uh in in the racy responsible Parties to be able to actually execute And get it done and they have a track Record and they're held accountable to That and they can be terminated in the Event that they don't do that that's Just one of dozens of things that will Probably get funded while this onchain Government now has to cogitate over that Mle over that debate that they're Actually going to build a budget and Start talking about it and at some point Approve it probably before the end of The year at the same time the Constitution that we for with is the Interim Constitution bootstrap Constitution like the United States had The Articles of Confederation we use That to bootstrap the US Constitution so We're doing the exact same thing so 50 Workshops are being held in the next Four months across the world in 50 Different countries with a nice balance Of all six continents and each of those Are going to elect delegates and all of Those delegates are going to descend Into Argentina for a constitutional Convention where an onchain Constitution
Is going to be written once ratified There ratified onchain so this onchain Government actually has to figure out How to ratify a constitution after People from all over the world come Together and actually write something New and so whatever government we have Now will be considerably better as of Quarter one of 2025 so you have a budget You have hard Forks you have a product Road map and you have a constitutional Convention and this onchain government Has to do all of those things the next 180 days and we're bagging as an Ecosystem that we can do that now tell Me how do you compete with that if You're ethereum or Bitcoin or any of These other guys because you've Harnessed the wisdom of millions of People and you've proven that you can Move just as fast as a centralized Company can do but there's no central Point of failure there's no governing Organization there's no escro Keys There's no like special Foundation off There in the distance that is there no It's truly decentralized it's a Decentralized country it's the Civilization in its own right and it's Self-healing it's self-reinforcing if Somebody dies there's a way to replace Them there's no money to steal because It's all managed on chain it's not a dow It's far far beyond that it is a digital
Nation and the true a sense of like what Blogi was talking about in his book he Wrote recently uh so that's what's Turning on and uh it's the magnum opus Of the project the age of voler is the The last picture in the road map and It's the hardest part to do because Actually no one solved the problem yet We like solving first principles Thinking problems uh all the time and we Had to figure out scalability and we had To figure out interoperability so Scalability oror Leos and Hydra and Rollups and all these other things and You know we talk about interoperability Partner chains and minur and these types Of things but governance godamn that's Voler and it's been uh the privilege of A lifetime to work on it and what what Just blows me away is every time the Community is asked to come in and do This they do you know the elections are Just a great example of that with the Interim constitutional committee Literally just had a 4-Hour debate and Here's the magic of it when we go and Listen to the debates between Trump and Biden in 11 days they're both going to Go up there and say that person over There is literally Hitler and if you Elect them they will have death camps And the world will come to an end In this constitutional debate 21 Candidates from all these different
Places in the world not a single one of Them attacked each other they just Talked about what they were doing and Why they're the best choice and what They believe in and their philosophy in These ttimes and things so it was issues Based that's a very very very healthy Culture and that's the type of healthy Culture that you need to get to good Governance to build good institutions And constitutional representation and uh And it's a great experiment so uh we're Leading the industry and uh there's Certainly been other initiatives like Tasos uh with their governance stuff and Open go with padot and dash has a lot of Cool stuff they've done we've learned From all of them and uh I hope this is Going to be as revolutionary as or Oris Has been for us and I really do believe It'll get there it's going to be a wild 180 days though because there's just so Much to Do Charles what do you think of the Bitcoin ecosystem like 10 years out do You think the Bitcoin ecosystem will be Viable because the stuff being built on Cardano for the first time ever can now Be built on bitcoin and that is many People say the most decentralized chain Cardano's up there you can judge it Different ways but what do you think Yeah you know I often get asked about Bitcoin and unfortunately it's always
This you know let's try to go Charles Into criticizing Bitcoin and find a way To come at him uh and coin Telegraph is Notorious for that and you know at the End of the day it's not that I don't Like Bitcoin you know when you look at Bitcoin it had to make a philosophical Decision of what does it want to be when It grows out it started as the Everything coin because it was the only Option so I came in very early as did Eric Vorhees and all these other people And we wanted Bitcoin to be everything So you know a lot of us worked on Projects related to bitcoin I was the Founding chairman of the Bitcoin Foundation's education committee I Started the Bitcoin education project You know I worked with all the OG bit Corners whether it be Roger ver Andreas And Antonopoulos all these kinds of People that are kind of into the ethos Of the passed and then right around 2013 There was a c change where all those Initial waves of attempts to make Bitcoin better whether it be color coins Or Master coin or these types of things They just stalled out because the Protocol didn't have the ability to Upgrade itself and so a lot of people They said you know let's go do something Else so the Bitcoin core developers said If you don't like it Fork it and we said Sure So some people Fork Bitcoin some
People built new projects we went and Built new project ethereum which was Made up of people who were former Mastercoin and color coin developers who Spent a long time trying to figure out How to issue assets on bitcoin and write Smart contracts on bitcoin and these Types of things couldn't get there and That was fine for that time period and There wasn't a lot of animosity there Was more curiosity and uh a good Conversation other people stuck with it And tried to keep upgrading Bitcoin Roger ver was a great example of that And it led to the Block Wars which Eventually created bitcoin cash Something happened to the ethos of Bitcoin after Bitcoin cash where we saw This toxic wave of Maximalism go over the space and instead Of just I disagree with you but we could Be friends it's I disagree with you and You're an evil criminal who is a scammer Coiner who needs to be thrown in prison We robbing people and you say well what About all this stuff I'm doing they say Well there's a premine or there's this Or this or proof of steak is a scam at Central Banking or what have you and That maximalism completely took all the Air out the room all the debate out of The room and at the same time they had Anti-intellectualism where they said Okay every design decision of Bitcoin is
Perfect and Necessary the latency you know the Settlement time all this type of stuff Perfect and necessary the smart contract Model perfect and necessary etc etc etc And Magic technology XYZ will solve your Problem side chains 2014 they published The paper where are they lightning I Guess that's solving all the problems Now we have bit VM as the next big thing So this magic McGuffin technology comes Out and then that's going to kill the Entire altcoin space and Bitcoin is the Only source of Truth and then there's This anti-intellectualism about Embracing people so when I was in the Bitcoin space we all hated the banks and We were all like we're going to we're Going to we're going to get rid of the Central banks and we are our own money We're sound money and the number one Event this year for Bitcoin is the ETF Approval in Black Rock entering in and Large quantities of the supply going to Mike sailor and black rock and other People where they have soft power now Because they can control the price and The listing and other things of Bitcoin It's an extraordinary thing and and so You see all this happening in their Culture and their e and the problem is It's really hard to do anything Meaningful because at the end of the day If I go and engage an average Bitcoin
Maximist they start from the position That I'm a criminal they start from the Position I'm a charlatan they start from The position that I have defrauded People because of the existence of Cardano and then they go to regulators And I know they've done this where They've talked to senators and Congressmen and said this legislation You're writing to regulate crypto what You should do is say Bitcoin is fine It's a commodity and everything else is Illegal so if you're going to lawmakers Trying to make our business Illegal if you every day wake up and Call everyone a criminal and then you Discount every Innovation that's Happened since 2009 as unnecessary Because it's not there you start looking Like Crypt menites or Amish people you Know who are like oh the technology of The 19th century is great and we don't Need anything more no cell phones or Medicine or any of these things God's Word is all we need the word of Satoshi Is all we need you know that's literally Where you're at and and and it would be Fine if if if they were like the Amish And the menites were they just stuck to Their own device and they were nice People and if you were in trouble and You ran into them they'd help you out Instead they're they're anti- menites And that they just beat the hell out of
You they come and actively try to get People arrested actively try to attack People every opportunity to attack People they do like when I met with RFK And RFK and I tweeted a picture together And I'm talking to a presidential Candidate about proc crypto Regulation that's universally beneficial For every D Builder every Cryptocurrency including Bitcoin every Maximist said you are standing next to a Criminal shitcoin scammer one tweet After another tweet after another tweet After and not just some random Twitter Troll people with million followers People with podcasts people write books These types of things okay so the people You actually have to pay attention to Because of their scale that is the Nature of Bitcoin that's a challenge of Bitcoin now that said there are Opportunities to work with despite this Insanely toxic very Self-destructive cargo cult of of crypto Menites the the the the Bitcoin Maximalist people you set those aside For a bit reasonable Bitcoin holders we Can build bridges in fact I would love For cardano to figure out how to build The first trustless ZK recursive bridge Between Bitcoin and another Cryptocurrency using bit VM that would Be a heck of a lot of fun to do and also Cardano whether they like it or not is
The spiritual successor to a lot of Bitcoin's Technology when they were writing years Ago how to improve Utxo by extending it guess who did that Ero and cardano we did it you know and We wrote papers on it and showed how to Do it well they're talking years ago Satoshi himself tried to figure out how To make Bitcoin script more expressive For smart contracts there the inflation Bug uh scared the hell out of everybody So they dial it back we weren't Dissuaded by that figured out how to do It as an ecosystem now we have plutus And all these other things so if you're A Bitcoin developer who likes functional Programming and you believe in the utxo Model your only two options to really Fully realize that are Ergo and cardano So obviously you got to look at these Two and say okay there's real value here Because this is a test net for us to Figure out how to actually build these Applications even if you hate cardano It's a good environment to build your Bitcoin applications in save for color Coins you read Manny's stuff or chroma Wallet or any of these things I grew up With way back in the day you know what We did we created a cardo native asset Standard that said that's a good idea And let's do that idea to its logical Conclusion on extended uto and now over
Eight million assets have been issued on Cardano so all these ordinals and these Other things that are being issued in Bitcoin land a lot of knowledge and Inspiration has been gained because of The existence of the cardano ecosystem And then Hydra is another example of That isomorphic state channels lightning Is a fundamentally good idea why it's so Hard on bitcoin is you're here and you Need just a little bit more semantical Richness in your programming model and Then you actually have enough to do it In its full vision we have that in Cardano so now we're figured out how to Get video games to run on freaking Hydra Channels where frame is transaction all This kinds of stuff and it's working Just beautifully and it's moving very Quickly and in just a few years time We've been able to kind of build up this Whole Corpus whereas 10 years of Progress with payment State channels on Bitcoin they're still not where they Need to be you know and they don't have Enough uh yet okay because of the Restrictiveness of the model everybody Builds on bitcoin just suffer and they Say that's a feature not a bug fine be Digital gold and do that thing but just Please for the love of God don't attack Us so you know where and when we can Work with people where and when we can Connect with people um you know we do I
Just really wish they would tone down The maximalism and I just really wish They would stop the attacks on the Allcoin space because it's so blatantly Unnecessary and even in just this rant Right here here's what's going to happen People are going to hit take 20 second 30 second Clips as they have done now For two years of me put them on Twitter And then dog piling low low IQ Maximalism there and then you'll have uh Max Kaiser come on and call me a sack of or Jeffrey Epstein or these T Because he's literally called me that Publicly he called me Jeffrey abene Because one of my companies in Wyoming Took paycheck protection money in 2020 I'm not sure how you equate those two Things there Maxi but that's what Maxi Does maxi pad in the brain it's it's uh It's a crazy Thing I know we uh probably only have Time for maybe one more question each I I have a I have a fun one Austin should I go first you wanna please I want to Hear it okay we did something like this Let me share my screen we did something Like this with r Paul the audience loved It feel free to you know do this if you Don't want to we can cut it out um you Know you famously tried to buy uh or Signaled that maybe you'd want to buy Coindesk last year and that you know the The mainstream media
Is uh in different cases is unfair to Cardano you mentioned cointelegraph I Don't know if you can see screen I have A list here of different media Outlets Bank list Fox Business coindesk the Block I'm sure you've seen a list like This before a tier list was wondering if You could give us as far as who treats Cardano fairly who does good work the Tier List this is gonna be fun okay um you Know coindesk you know let's go ahead And put them in a b to a c and the Reason being is that b or c yeah let's Put in B you know because I I I'm 5050 On that so there's been some things that They've done which are quite nice like They've accurately and fairly reported The hard forks and uh things on or Boris And other things like that and then There's been other things that they've Done I've just scratched my head at and Uh we thought about buying them and when We looked at uh the financials and other Things we decided to pass on that cuz There would be a mismatch of what we Perceive to be the value and their Expectations and that's fine uh New Management seems to have improved a Little bit so I'm optimistic that over Time the relationship with coindesk will Improve itself um especially since Certain people have left coin Telegraphed as a c and not because they
Hate us but more because of their Journalistic model that they have um the Nature of how they write articles and Source things the franchise model it's The monster of the week and so if we Happen to be hot and sexy we get Radically public uh radically positive Articles but if not in that list uh you Know they'll just sh on us for that Crypt banter is a d and that's rand's Show and um I don't understand why Rand Does what he does you know uh he loves Luna and uh and FTX and these guys uh And hates us and he used to be a Friendly guy you know and I used to go On a show and we used to talk and now Cardano's worthless and evil and uh you Know we're all going to fall out of the Top 10 and never there's no real value There and and there's no dabs and things It's just crazy uh the block I'd put in A B you know I've never had a big issue With them um decrypt i' put in a be as Well and by the way please don't feel Like we're fishing to get pushed in the S tier or the a tier no no no no be Honest we're not crypto Crow who's not Even on this list I real Vision real Vision is an A and the reason being is That I can separate Raul personally and Some of the crap he does from the Accessibility real Vision every time I've gone on real Vision um and we've
Talked about cardano these been some of Their highest rated episodes and most Positively received episodes and real Vision broadcasted it without any Censorship or other things like that so I just think this is a case where the Founder doesn't really like cardono for Whatever reason but the rank and file Are willing to give us a a fair shake And uh we really do enjoy that Fox Business also I'd put in an a because I Have a lot of great relationships there And uh you know every time we gone um They've been nothing but fair to us like I've been on Maria's show and uh you Know I I know Elanor tenet and other People there and they've never really Written negative trashy tabloid crap About cardano if they mention us at all Because they seldom mention crypto but When they do and we happen to be in the Conversation it's always been positive And uh and that's that's always nice I I Think that's pretty cool I wish we get More coverage and more in-depth coverage But remember they're not trade media you Know coin Telegraph is 100% Cryptocurrency whereas Fox is you know Broad stuff uh CNBC squa box uh there's Been a few negative things here and There but I put them B you know and That's that's the same what Bitcoin did I'm not sure about that One up near the top in the middle near
The bottom yeah I I don't know that Publication I'm sorry what Bitcoin dude It's Peter McCormack's podcast oh oh Okay okay I know Peter he's a piece of Sh d Uh he sh over off all the time and said Cardano's horrible and I'm a scammer an Evil person and uh you know all these Things oh actually no that's Corey Klippenstein yeah Peter's been a little Bit more fair uh but not so much though Moving up to Sea we'll do see there and Whose podcast is up only so far what we Have left is uh we have bankless which Is you know bankless up on oh yeah They're they're in D bankless bastards Okay anything more to say on a lot of People like them well I mean just the Greatest example would be uh when they Asked me to go on their show and I said Okay well you went to a salana event um You know and there's rare Evo I'll you Know you can come and if you actually Want to understand cardano because You're claiming you don't know anything About it go there there's probably going To be 10020 cardano pres projects Represented and you get to see the Entire community and just go and talk to Everybody and I said I'll give you guys A 5our interview if you want it and we Could talk to I'm blew in the face about Anything nothing off limits and they Said no no no we want you to come on for
45 minutes and uh we can just basically Ask you why is cardano not dead and Prove to us cardano is not dead they're Not legitimate people and some of the Comments that they've made throughout The history uh have been just blatantly Offensive and unfair and it's because They're not actually interested in Having an intellectually honest Conversation about cardano they've Already taken a position it is a dead Project and uh we're scammers and you Know their job is not to get luned and So they just want to inform Their Audience every single day that cardano Is going to die uh and represent us in The the most negative light possible I Have a lot of respect for Publications That maybe they did something wrong but Then they admit it and they say to Themselves hey we can do better and in The case of Bank list they just can't Get there you know they they just have Made up their mind and Rand has too for Example crypto banter and that's what Earned you a D in my mind is that you're You're dogmatically adhering to a single Belief regardless of the evidence that You have there coin Bureau is a see you Know there's been uh a relationship back And forth there and you guys have always Been fair so I'll put you guys up in the S tier not just because we're being Interviewed but I mean come on you know
You have a huge audience you've always Been friendly you're nice guys and you Try to get things right and accurate and Uh that's that's the difference between A and S is it's not just did we get a Fair Shake but also if you get something Wrong you go out of your way to try to Correct that bring people on have a real Conversation in a non-adversarial way And uh let them talk their book um and So that that's an example of a of a good Institution and who's up only which Person is that up only was more Prominent in 2021 cycle it's Kobe and Ledger they've been around you know in Crypto for a while uh I can't recall What companies to work for Co Kobe's Like a Dev he's often you know get he Probably you had probably guys had an Exchange on Twitter if you're not They're not really that relevant this Cyc yeah I don't know them so I can't Rate them I'm sorry okay wow this was Great and obviously we got a discount Altcoin daily at the top but audience at Home please tell us but I appreciate Charles you know you ranking US High Maybe just like give a a summation now We see the whole list summation on on What you want to see or who didn't we Include Or well you know there's a lot of small Podcasts that I tend to go on and uh and Then you know there's there's broader
Podcasts that are crypto specific but They do they do cover our industry like Lex Freedman for example got Tremendously interested in crypto in 2021 and he was a great guy he went out And interviewed everybody you know and Uh everybody literally I think he even Interviewed Richard Hart for God's sakes And so I put him an S tier because he is The model if you run a podcast you enter In with a beginner's mind and you say Look guys I uh I don't know anything About this tell me about it and I'll Spend hours and hours and was trying to Understand it and my job isn't to go and Be an adversarial person but rather Create a platform for people to explain Who they are and why they do what they Do uh but also have enough of a backbone That if they're spreading propaganda or Lying you call them on that and uh and Throughout his whole career he he's done That and it was probably to this day the Most enjoyable interview I've ever had Episode 192 on Lex Friedman and we were There for five and a half hours straight And uh he's one of the smartest Interviewers I've ever interacted with Because you know he's PhD in artificial Intelligence he's solid guy dad was a Famous plasma physicist uh but more Importantly the questions he asked the Probing nature of them and uh and the Holism of it it really allowed a person
To be a person um Joe Rogan is also in That same category you know it's an S Tier podcast and every time he's talked About crypto you know he's brought a few People on like he brought Andreas and Antonopoulos on uh his podcast and he Was very fair and uh he's he he's an MMA Guy he's a comedian he's not exactly Like you know Mr inventor here he's not A technology podcast but what he does Represent is the mainstream ethos where Everyday people are curious about this New thing that they hear and what he Tried to do is fairly represent the Industry as a whole and so uh and so Every time he's talked about crypto I Don't think he's ever mentioned cardano But crypto in general you know I think It's been uh exactly what we look for Whereas if you compare that for example To like MSNBC or CNN uh or a lot of These other channels um Washington Post What have you you know those mainstream Media guys um it's very clear that They're following an agenda you know and The agenda is well we like the guy in The white house right now so you know What we're going to do is we're just Going to be anti- crypto so crypto Equals Hamas you know uh crypto equals Uh Uh terrorist financing you know crypto Equals no use case and utility and Everybody losing all their money you
Know that that's not true and they know That that's not true they know that this Is a real industry but they're covering That because they're propaganda Factories you know and uh and to Fox Business's credit and to cnbc's credit At least what they're doing is treating It like an asset class and they're Mentioning it in a way as they would an Asset class that's the best I could ask For for that me because I believe the Medium is outdated and it's clearly Broken but you know you don't go and Write article after article after Article that say the only use case of Crypto is child or Tomas financing or North Korea getting nuclear weapons or Something like that you just don't do That and unfortunately in the mainstream Media that's literally what the coverage Has been the last 24 36 months and it's Really hurt our ability as an industry To navigate and you know it makes these Things a bit challenging for us but you Know you I hope that gives your audience A sense of you know how I think about These things I don't look for Shilling I Don't look for hey this is something you Should buy and this coin is or this That's not the point of it media is all About making somebody aware and Expanding that awareness about why People do what they do and then there is An accountability component if they
Don't do what they say they're going to Do and that's public you have to call Him out on that and ask him on that you Know like for example there's a lot of Interview with El musk and he's become Too egotistical and big but they should Have a real conversation about Self-driving cars because you can Verbatim look at him year after year After year after year and he says we Will have self-driving cars by This Day 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 by this Date by this day by this day so then When he brings it up in an interview you Say well hang on a second Here track Record it's not so good and then he Freaks out and how dare you guys you're A dishonest media the Trump does a lot Of the same stuff he like guys it's not That it's just you've been promised me This thing for like seven years now and Every prediction you've made is wrong Hang on why aren't you you know why is It this time going to be different and That's a fair question to ask and and I'm a musk fan I like elen musk and so Forth but you have to hold them Accountable when they clearly say things That didn't happen or the open AI Lawsuit where he's calling it closed Ai And all this other stuff let let's be Honest here it was sour grapes over the Fact that Tesla couldn't absorb open AI That that's the the big issue with him
He's he's angry that Papa SAA got it Instead of Papa musk you know and Sam's A bit bit smarter than the average Bearer on these things so he's he's Pissed at that so okay he sues over it And he's trying to say all this stuff But when you look at the emails and the Other things it's very clear that they Caught wind that he was trying to take Over and embrace and extinguish the Company and they didn't sign up for that They wanted to go in a different Direction so you know you ask him about It is that fair yeah and if he freaks Out about it well that's up to him good Media has that capacity do we have good Media with respect to musk coverage no 100% of media against musk right now is Is is Aerial the the pay package is one of the Greatest examples of our lifetime of of That so in 2018 he went to the board and The shareholders and asked them a very Simple thing if I make you a trillion Dollars I get 5% Yen I think any Reasonable human being would be like Okay but what if you don't well if I Don't I get nothing okay so you're Willing to work for free unless I get a Trillion dollar valuation okay yeah I'm Sure yeah yeah here's 5 perc I mean it's Like yeah I can't meet a person I've not Met met a single person to say no to That it's one of the craziest it's
Absurd to say that you're going to go Make a $50 billion doll company a Trillion dollar company literally that's What happened though and then after it Happened even though 80% of the Shareholders 73% of the non-m musk Shareholders by the way said yes to it And the board said yes to it a judge at The behest of a shareholder who owned Nine shares that he purchased at $200 That are now worth over $2,000 decided to overturn the will of a Super majority of the shareholders and The board and in the process of doing That tried to give $5 billion of stock To lawyers And say that's in the best interest of The shareholders of Tesla then musk goes Back to the shareholders and says this Is insane give me what I'm do and the Shareholders approve it Again and then you have the media Covering that and 100% of the stories in The mainstream media are musk is evil uh He's manipulated retail shareholders uh Ra just attack after attack after attack Why because he bought Twitter and he's Competing with the mainstream media so The book is kill musk and any Accomplishment the guy has is evil Neurolink hey this guy's playing Civilization 6 with his brain and look At all this cool stuff oh my God it's so Amazing oh well the wires retracted a
Little bit but he's still able to use it Yeah the wires were tracked so you know It's very dangerous you know and then Spa SpaceX literally he took something To the size of the Statue of Liberty Starship is bigger than the Statue of Liberty and blasted it off into space And it landed and they're like ah well You know the first few of them blew up And uh it's bad you know somehow you Know but musk won't accomplish SpaceX is Still bad you know starlink I I yeah Astronomers are angry there's too many Lights in the sky now it's interfering Their telescopes it's like my God it's It's the craziest you you see when You read this because again they hate The guy so that's our problem in Mainstream media they have a Philosophical and political narrative And if you step outside of that Narrative matter what the truth is you Get railroaded and destroyed so when you Talk about media and its whole I only Admire and respect media that doesn't Have that philosophy I say if you're Going to talk about something talk with A beginner's mind try to understand and Acknowledge upfront what your biases are If I talk about crypto I'm biased Because I created cardano I'm an Ethereum Co-founder obviously I'm a crypto guy And I am a very particular type of
Crypto guy am I going to be the most Objective person in the World talking About salana no I'm going to bring out The Nintendo cartridge and blow it off And these types of things okay that's Just who I am all right don't expect me To be objective in my assessments of the People that have made different Trade-offs because already in my head Said they're making a mistake in their Design however I can be intellectually Honest enough to admit that second I can At least fairly represent good things That happen across the industry vitalik Has done phenomenal things in terms of Ethereum salana has demonstrated a Really amazing way to growth hack you Know polygon has also done the same in a Certain respect zky is doing very Interesting things starkware is doing Very interesting things and that's what Real discussions and dialogues are about They don't force on the wedge issues and The differences or exacerbate where we Have differences you try to find some Common ground in the conversation where You could connect with people and Understand that's why I really admire Lex and Joe because throughout their Entire career that's what's made them Successful they brought on all these Different guests and some are hyper Controversial like Douglas Murray or Just recently Lex brought on Kevin spacy
Okay that's pretty controversial there And yet they're able to have a Conversation you don't think look at When he brought on the Palestinians and The Israelis he interviewed BB Netanyahu And somebody who's on a Israeli watch List for terrorism and for Palestine he He he brought on both guests and talked To them so the fact that he's able to Have conversations on both sides and and Let them explain why they do what they Do and if they're unable or unwilling to Do that the words themselves explore Things like it was very troubling when You watch the bbnet and Yahoo interview It's short tur and it's very confined And you lift saying he's not saying a Lot and obviously he's not willing to Have a real dialogue um the same Happened when he interviewed um uh the Head of the NIH uh whose name was will Come to me in a moment uh Francis Collins and he asked him all these Questions about Co and these other Things and France very narrow and you're Saying to yourself I don't feel Transparency here not once did he have To go and attack that person and say You're an unethical person and a Dishonest person ra he just lets them Talk and you the audience are not being Talked out you're judging the person Based upon the argumentation the Presentation the the self-reflection and
These types of things in my view the Best podcast they give the guest the Space and the best media they give the Project and the person the space to be Able to do that and then if you want to Editorialize you absolutely can Especially if you feel that the user Should know something like you say by The way the guy talking owns 30% of this Product he's pitching oh by the way the Guy talking went to prison and they went To prison for this crime or whatever Then you're contextualizing relevant Information so they can help make that Decision and that's the real difference I think between the A and the S tier is That editorialization that that is fair And relevant if that makes Sense sorry that's a long-winded answer But I mean I you know this is the most Controversial part of the podcast right We're raiding people I loved it I loved It and I appreciate you playing ball two Final questions Charles and let you go I Cannot let you leave without asking you About midnight is it happening this year Why do we need a side chain if we have Hydra and as a cardano holder will I get An aird dropped token I love it you guys Cut right to the point um so partner Chains are a whole different animal than Hydra Hydra is really a Dap by dap thing And the point of Hydra is to take all The stuff that you do in the main chain
And put it into something that's domain Specific for you so the canonical Example there is like a poker game so Let's say we want to play a poker game You really ask yourself is the fact that I had two Aces and bet you know $5 six hands into a game we played 26 Years ago is that something we should Preserve for the rest of time in history On the blockchain Probably not why are we using a Blockchain we want the cards to be fair We want to make sure that you can't see My cards we want it uh when I win and Lose for those wins and losses to be Preserved so we want to be able to prove That the people I'm playing against are Humans you know these are the kinds of Things you think about in your game Design you're not thinking about how do I preserve and protect all those things And forever put them on the blockchain The auditability has to be there the Reconstructability has to be there but Not necessarily the actual raw data Hydra is built for that whether it be a Payment system or an application or Video game like one of the projects We're working on is we're trying to get Doomed to run on a hydro Channel and it Would be really cool to play that real Time probably not good that every frame In your doom experience that's running Is permanently on the card on a
Blockchain doesn't make any sense right But you can do that in a hydr channel Midnight is what's example of a partner Chain and partner chain is a very Different concept than a side chain or Even a layer two so it basically says Okay how if blockchains were actually People or organizations could they Partner with each other so if I'm a new Chain what do I need I need liquidity Infrastructure decentralization Security uh you know etc etc I need all These different services and utilities And if I'm a new chain what am I paying With well new chain has a token so I'm Going to prepare to give some of my Token to another chain to provide those Services for me so that's a partnership So midnight is providing a new service To the entire cryptocurrency industry so It's going to work with ethereum and Bitcoin and salana and other systems and That Services computational privacy Which in itself is a super useful thing That basically blockchains can't Currently keep secrets very well yet Every business and Regulatory schema in The entire world requires you to keep Secrets from McDonald's to Microsoft you Need to keep a secret McDonald's is not Going to tell you how much money is in The cash register it's not going to tell You when Billy's working and how many Hours he's working these types that's
Proprietary Private Business information To that franchise analogously M Microsoft absolutely is not going to Tell you what it's doing with the Department of Defense okay that's their Business and that's actually clearance Work and uh they would go to prison if They revealed that okay so so those Organizations require to keep a secret So how do Secrets work in blockchain Land when everything is transparent Timestamped auditable and publicly Accessible you need some sort of Sophisticated stack that you can put on So what midnight did is figured that out It's called kacina it allows you had a Private smart contract you write them in Typescript and the idea is a service Oriented model where you have an app on Ethereum or an app on cardano or an app On salana what have you and just like The API economy that we've all come to Know and love in web 2 like if you're Creating an AI application you're Probably not going to go build your own Chat GPT you're going to call open AI Over an API and that's how you get your AI into your application so similarly Ethereum app you can pay an ether and Call into midnight for the Privacy stuff That you want so why would I want to do That well are we already cover the Business side but what about automated Regulation what if Unis swap wants to
Blacklist all us users but not introduce Total centralization have an entity do All that well what if settlement could Be compliance and you could build that Whole thing as a series of smart Contracts there's personally Identifiable information there's all This stuff that's private and the public Stuff is what happens inside the system And you can buy we call that RVP Regulative value transfer protocol this Is where the industry is going the Legacy world and the crypto world are Coming colliding into each other and one Part is real world assets like Securities and land and these types of Things and another part are Dows and the Management of them and another part is The automation of Regulation like kyc And AML and these things but preserving The crypto ethos so can't be evil and Not being spied on or these things so Privacy does matter and you need a Framework to do that so that's what Midnight is doing and because it's Universally useful it's not just a Cardano specific thing the point of the Service layer of cardano the partner Chain framework is to give people across The Spectrum the ability to do that now Who makes the blocks the blocks there's A protocol called minur that allows What's called multi-resource consensus And in the beginning the blocks are all
Made by the spos which means midnight Has to pay for that so its tokens get Paid to the Stak pool operators and the Ada holders because they're doing the Work of maintaining that system and in Terms of air drop absolutely every Person has adaa um could be eligible for It uh just depending on whether they do Some work because they have to launch The network so yeah you're not going to Just get it as an airdrop you have to Mine blocks to to get your uh your thing And so we'll announce the tokenomics a Later date but I think that's very fair And and it's a model for all Decentralized services so right now We're entering with computational Privacy because the industry needs it But then there's also decentralized Social networks there's also Decentralized infrastructure like Storage like competing with inferior on Alchemy there's also for example uh World mobile that's decentralized uh Physical infrastructure play with uh Telecommunications you know there's also Decentralized AI like if you're going to Compete with open Ai and here's the Magic of the partner chains framework It's a framework that basically allows You to focus on what your service is and You could build a collection of bespoked Stuff starting from the consensus on Down so right now it's card Doo takes
Care of your block production but what If you want to do both proof of work and Proof of stake together well you can do That with multi-resource consensus why Would I want to do that in a framework Well I'd want to do that in a framework Because let's say I'm doing a Decentralized large language model What's my number one concern There there are two the number one is Computation where the hell do I get the Compute power to run this thing and then Number two is where do I get the data so What if you had algorithms consensus Algorithms to incentivize the inference And training so the proof of useful work And algorithms to incentivize data like A proof of data to combine with the Proof of State protocol to give you fast Finality and transactional speed and These types of things those three things Together would incentivize the creation Of a decentralized large language Model there you go and you don't have to Make choices you just put all three Together and the part that cardano does Cardano gets paid for the part that your Users do they get paid for you split up Your blockchain Rewards well wait a Minute can partner chains also get Validators from other networks yeah Vator eventually will turn on an Ethereum validators salana validators or Validators other ecosystems could also
Do that and it's in Partnership so the Token holders who launches a CNA the two Token model there's a there's a token on Cardano that's the governance and Oversight and the the the maintenance Token and the one is a utility token for Uh paying for the comp computational Units of the service the the token Holders there can take a vote and they Can decide are do we still want to be Partnered with cardano or do we want to Move somewhere else and if they want to Move somewhere else minur let you do That it's very much like what Steve Jobs Did when he was in the late 90s early 2000s realizing hey ActiveX and Flash And all this other stuff is really Terrible for the web because you as a Developer basically vendor locking People into proprietary technology Controlled by a single company so what Did he do he embraced HTML 5 and HTML 5 Became the linga franka and it killed Flat in the web so analogously when you Look at the current side chains models Whether it be Cosmos with IBC or parach Chains or any of these layer twos They're basically totally ring on an Ecosystem and you're kind of stuck you Can't leave with partner chains what's So magical about this is you could say Hey guys you're partnered with the Ecosystem because you know what we have The best infrastructure the best
Community the best way of launching Decentralized the best Bridges the best Wallets the best security 24/7 up time And if that doesn't work for you in your Community go somewhere else and you can And it doesn't destroy your ecosystem What does that mean it means that if You're polygon and you're asking Yourself about your future and say if we Can still you know do what we do with Ethereum but do it as a cardonal partner Chain and we get a better deal as token Holders maybe we do that it means if You're vchain maybe that makes sense Means if you're algr maybe that makes Sense means if you're hadera hashgraph Maybe that makes sense you know so what This does is actually opens up the Opportunity for cardono is an ecosystem To partner with other ecosystems and Remember what I was saying about the Third generation cryptocurrency what's Number two Interoperability why don't we have it It's not technology it's tokenomics at The core it's tokenomics people have Financial incentives to do this that's Why they attack each other but if they Say hang on this thing exists and I Benefit and they benefit well yeah let's All be friends that makes sense okay There we go so I think it's going to Completely reset the entire conversation And you start it with a utility that
Everybody needs they need regulated Value transfer protocols they need Computational private uh privacy Blockchains need the ability to keep a Secret for modern business and real World assets and these types of things And midnight is going to come barreling Down and get that done but the minute That that's successful people are going To say wow how do we replicate the Midnight miracle and they'll say wait a Minute I can become a partner chain too Absolutely come on over cardon's open For business and every time you do it You bring millions of users into the Ecosystem you create billions of Transactions and it really benefits the Ecosystem and why would they want to Come there because they have the best Security and scalability the best Infrastructure and the best governance It's rock solid you know it's going to Be around 10 years 20 years 30 years and Frankly the friendliest community so It's a huge bet and uh there's a lot con A it's an enormous project it's kind of Funny people there's so many different Pieces like there's this huge governance Initiative meanwhile there's a massive Partner chains initiative meanwhile There's midnight going on at the same Time and also midnight has all the zero Knowledge technology too recursive Snarks and all this other stuff so all
That magic Moon maath that the industry Loves and Praises we're the Cryptographers we actually know how to Do it better than most uh it's a Programming language problem a Cryptography problem we have all those People so I it's leapfrogging the Industry in terms of capabilities and We're super excited about it and it's Just been great to partner with people Like we went to the polka dot ecosystem And the framework that parody chain is Inspired by is inspired by uh parody Substrate and that's just an amazing Thing when you know Gavin creates Something and we're not exactly on the Best of terms all the time some days we Love each other other days we don't and You know for the greater good of all Ecosystems it makes sense to blend and Hybridize these things and call a spade A spade when good design decisions were Made you know so that's super cool that Blockchains can find ways to work Together in that and that's what creates The interoperability ecosystem now to Your final question will it launch this Year likely not however uh more to say About midnight because it takes a little Bit of time to turn on a capability like That so I will'll let the midnight team Speak for itself in that respect Charles Final question because I know you got to Go you're a busy guy will you'll be
Speaking a rare Evo keynote speaker we Will be there this year speaking as well Um use code altcoin daily for 5% off Everybody down the audience I want to Pack the house with the altcoin daily Community last year at rare Evo you said That you will you believe cardano will Become the biggest cryptocurrency in the World that inevitably inevitably means It'll flip Bitcoin when do you see that Happening if we can do what I'm saying There's no way to beat Cardon because There's nothing that can compete with it Because at the end of the day it has Lived up to what Satoshi started at the End of the day what are we trying to do We're trying to change the economic Political and social systems of the World for everyone everywhere billions Of people so if you build a growth Engine that doesn't lose its people and It's always adding people and you build A growth engine where you can absorb all The technology of your competitors at Some point you just outgrow and then you Wake up and it's a multi-trillion dollar Ecosystem with trillions of dollars of Value moving around every single day That's just a fact it's a competitive Reality and fact and it's not done by Any one individual's actions and Behaviors it's done by the collective H's self-interest just like a normal Economy does it's almost like GDP okay
So some people are in Argentina right Now and they're fighting like hell to Get the Argentine government to adopt Some things some people are in Ghana Right now fighting like hell to get the Ganan government to do things there's Some people in Vietnam getting Vietnamese game developers to do Something there's people wanting to be Partner chains and once midnight is out And if it's successful there'll be Hundreds of partner chains coming and People are building and launching there Are over 300 daps that are out live and Doing interesting things in cardano and Every one of them has a team and a SE CEO and all kinds of people and they're Fighting like hell to get their stuff Growing the key is is to enable and Empower these people in the right way That they have the resources and Inspiration and tooling necessary to get To the next level then if you've Designed it right they come together as A community and they do the next step And then the next step that is what Flips Bitcoin because Bitcoin Stalled the only value proposition it Has is it's big and Successful that's it it it's not some New technology it's it's not some new Capability it's not the fact that it's Super easy to use it to go and do Something interesting it's big and
Successful that's what Yahoo's value Proposition was That's What Microsoft Windows value proposition was that's What Windows phone's value proposition Was that's what myspace's value Proposition was and you know so Network Effects don't mean anything in Technology uh in economic political and Social systems means absolutely nothing You know if you don't believe me go Ahead and pull out your blackberry uh Open up Internet Explorer go to uh you Know reset your MySpace account so log Into your Yahoo email or AOL email and Then reset your MySpace account and go Ahead and uh and blog about it you know And create a little little note there so So obviously none of these things are Significant but when I was growing up They were the market Standard and viewed As completely unsalable and nobody could Touch them and they've been completely Usurped by new things things and we Think Google is unassailable look at the Growth of perplexity Google's almost Unusable now as a as a product and all These AI search engines are a huge Threat to them and within just a few Years they could displace it if Google's Not careful I was at Eric Schmidt's House in uh 2022 at The milin Institute And he was rambling on and on about how Large language models are like the next Big thing and he was absolutely right he
Knew the future yet he was completely Convinced that Google was the one to win He's like we invented Transformer we Have all the talent we have all the data We have all the compute power look at The Google tenser all this type of stuff We're going to be open AI we're we're Just going to be the guys and what Happened they got outc competed by Startups and these types of things so Network effects change all the time and The people that you'd expect to win Whether they be ethereum or Bitcoin you Know here today gone tomorrow you know Salana was dead now you know huge amount Of growth okay could be dead in 12 Months could grow another 5x 10x those Are flashes of unless you have the right Fundamentals though because you have to Look at a snapshot of 10 years the only One that's stayed relevant is Bitcoin And there's a very particular reason for That because it's a very simple model But like gold it can't grow above a Certain floor digital gold only has a Certain utility and purpose and after You know 500 million billion people own It maybe you'll have a quarter million Dollar Bitcoin or half million dollar Bitcoin and that's it and it'll kind of Reach that cap there and it's well Distributed where whereas High utility Things that are smart contract systems Well what's the value of being the
Voting system of every country on the Planet what's the value of being the Payment system of the entire world What's the value being the credit system Or the identity system for every country In the planet it's incalculably higher Than Bitcoin in that respect of being The value of gold so what makes you that The only way is embracing Decentralization first principles Thinking preserving the Integrity of Your system and cre the right incentives For millions of people who don't know Each other to come and use that Technology in the right way and also the Ability to absorb new Ideas why did BlackBerry fail or Yahoo Fail or Myspace fail or all these other Things because they were inflexible to a Changing competitive reality and they Didn't understand that their business Model was no longer valid and they were On momentum they weren't actually Driving anymore and so ethereum suffered From this they got stuck in a and now They have all these competitors eating Away at them and and slowly eating them Out from the inside out you know with Layer twos grinding them down which by The way can become layer ones at any Time especially with partner chains and They don't have to be Pro ethereum that Network effect can move very quickly yet They're thinking they're like Bitcoin
And they have this dominating thing yeah They don't have that same cult so they Could get mys spaced very quickly so Yeah I do believe we could do this if we Get the right thing this is why we're so Focused on the fundamentals like the the First principles thinking the Edinburgh Decentralization the measure Decentralization the onchain governance These types of things because you can't Stop that once it's it's going fast Enough and it fixes its own problems and If there's a mistake in your strategy You're able to identify that faster than Anybody else and absorb that and if There's a brilliant idea you're able to Take that brilliant idea and bring it Into your orbit pivot and uh and make That a significant idea no matter who You are how brilliant you are as a Centralized business you can't do that 247 the only ecosystems that can do that Are ecosystems that elevate horizontally The users up to a point where each and Every one of them has a say and Visibility those are the systems that Don't miss they can't miss because you Only need one Smart Cow to open the Fence and then the whole herd gets out So you just need one user to have a Bright idea and it goes parabolic and Everybody's like yep that's the model Let's go do that and then do you have a Culture that allows you to pivot fast
Enough to go and Chase that and get it Done that's what cardano is building That's the core USP of it you ask me the Opening question why cardano well that's What it is that's what we seek to do and I have no idea you know how that's going To translate to coin market cap or when That's going to translate but Directionally it's right it's like Don Valentine when he was talking about Sequoia and they say how are you so Successful he said I knew the future he Knew that these whole transistors and Computer chip things were going to change everything but if you Asked him like okay well when exactly is The personal computer and who is it Going to bring the personal computer Don Couldn't have for told Steve Jobs and IBM and all this other stuff in the 1960s and 70s it was impossible but he Knew Directionally this is the technology to Bet on this is the approach to bet on Because how the hell is the vacuum tube Going to compete with that you got one Thing that's static and it can't get any Smaller or more energy efficient you got The other thing doing this every 18 Months and the speed keeps going up Every 18 months you do the graph you do The math at some point it's taking over The entire world Gordon Morris said the Exact same thing so that's the thing
About crypto are you losing your Community are you getting more Centralized or more decentralized can You absorb your competitor's technology Do you have first principles thinking And do you have the right governance System where you don't fracture apart I'll close with this when I was the CEO Of ethereum many years ago before the Earth cooled and uh was pushed out as Many authors like to remind people um The the cryptocurrency project that Scared me more than anything else was Not Bitcoin or Litecoin or any these There wasn't a lot back then but there Were a few was NXT and the reason being is that I Witnessed in just three months time this Thing come out of nowhere built on Java With this incredibly engaged community And they were adding features like crazy They had user-driven assets they had a Deck they were going to add smart Contracts through something called Automated transactions they written in Java they were already proof of State And I was like well the proof of steak Did work this it doesn't matter We'll fix it this community was running And it was going so fast what killed Them was two things one their token Distribution wasn't so good but you know You can fix that um but the other thing And this is the more pertinent thing is
They didn't have a good governance System so they fractured and they broke Into things like crypy and Lisk and Eventually scor which is Alex chiro's Project which became Ergo wave was Another they fractured in all these Pieces And they couldn't get it all together Had they had the right governance system Ethereum wouldn't exist NXT would be Number one because they would have just Grown and grown and grown like a weed And they would absorbed everybody and it Was a sexy project because it was new And interesting it was first principles Codebase it had Java and I was like who Cares if it worked they will find a way This is what Brendan Nick likes to call The wrong way is the right way when he Creates JavaScript in 53 days they had The right growth model behind it and it Became a thing so when I looked at it I Said look ethereum is going to take 24 Months and this was in 2014 to get to a Point where it's Harden enough to do Smart contracts if NXT has smart Contracts before us because they already Have the community infrastructure They're going to own the entire smart Contract space and they're Lea frog Everybody and so governance matters that Much it is really the core Differentiator between whether a project Is successful or a project will fail and
In the long term you can never get Around the fact that poor governance Will kill a project Microsoft is another Great example 1998 Bill Gates went to His research division which at the time Largest in the world for technology and He said tell me the future the next 10 Years I want to know it and here's what They told him Bill Search mobile Computing and social media That's going to be it and they wrote Down the business model of Google Facebook and the iPhone so a 600 billion Doll company with the hyper Monopoly That owned all technology basically had On the desk a blueprint for the entire Future and they lost it they watched Google rise they watched Facebook rise They watched you know the iPhone come Out of nothing why because their Governance sucked their culture sucked And Sasha Adella wrote about it and hit Refresh when he became CEO he said the Only thing I really did was change the Culture and the Microsoft did the rest Because we had all the brains and all The market stuff and they went from like A $300 billion doll company3 trillion Doll company under sa Adella and he Changed culture he said Co the see and There's culture so that is the key and So you want to talk about competitive Differentiators and all these other
Things and go beyond it you have to do That that's really the core of of of who We are what we do and uh you know and That's what we fight for in the cardano Ecosystem Charles thank you so much for Sharing your time we will see you at Rare Evo thanks man
